Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Vini darko]

I wonder how much the half life of facts applies here

 

[BDWoody]

- I just make a personal statement : I like it better.

Totally irrational.

I know.

That's not irrational, and that's not what's going to get anyone riled up.

Science doesn't require you to prefer a better engineered device. I think that's part of the confusion... Nobody really cares what anyone else personally prefers.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Hi,

That a damn good question...

But that assumes the irrational can be explained. And if it is rational then there simply is no explanation for it.

Like : I know my DAC/AMP A (or whatever else) has lesser measurements than this DAC/AMP B.
Still, when I am listening to the lesser one (that would be A), I personnally and subjectively prefer what I hear coming out of that more than what I hear coming out o fhte scientifically better one (B).
I am biased and all... But I of course
- I do not deny that the other one is objectively better (and that, as such, I SHOULD like it better) ;
- I just make a personal statement : I like it better.

Totally irrational.

I know.

I am aware of my own weakness :-(

I don't think anybody here cares whether you, or anybody else, likes some bit of kit which is less accurate than another.
After all, lots of enthusiasts prefer LP over CD, but stating a preference is different to claiming it is better, particularly if the implication is that measurements don't matter or don't tell the whole story.
I like LPs but know the SQ isn't accurate, for example.
There is the complication in this thread, though, of people asserting that they hear differences when the measured differences are less than human perception. That is different again.

 

[wasnotwasnotwas]

This is the part I don't understand. If you know your reasons are subjective, personal and irrational, especially the last, why would you still go with them?

S.

People will pay good money for crap cars simply because it is available in a certain select colour. This is in spite of there being objectively far better vehicles to choose from maybe even for less money.

 

[BDWoody]

People will pay good money for crap cars simply because it is available in a certain select colour. This is in spite of there being objectively far better vehicles to choose from maybe even for less money.

I choose to drive a car with a manual transmission. I know without a doubt that the slick DCT available is better in pretty much every measurable respect.

I just like driving my stick-shift a lot better. That's not irrational... Just a personal choice

 

[threni]

Hi,

That a damn good question...

But that assumes the irrational can be explained. And if it is rational then there simply is no explanation for it.

Like : I know my DAC/AMP A (or whatever else) has lesser measurements than this DAC/AMP B.
Still, when I am listening to the lesser one (that would be A), I personnally and subjectively prefer what I hear coming out of that more than what I hear coming out o fhte scientifically better one (B).
I am biased and all... But I of course
- I do not deny that the other one is objectively better (and that, as such, I SHOULD like it better) ;
- I just make a personal statement : I like it better.

Totally irrational.

I know.

I am aware of my own weakness :-(

It's good that you are totally honest. But without a blind test you don't even know if you prefer the lesser one. Suppose you did a blind test and just could not tell them apart. Would you still tell yourself that you prefer it? Isn't that like preferring one kettle for boiling water more quickly, measuring it, seeing that it boils at the same speed as the old kettle but continuing to say that it boils more quickly? Sure, it looks nicer, has a "stay hot" button. Preferring it for those reasons (features, aesthetics) makes total sense. But continuing to prefer it for speed reasons when it's not faster...hmmm... (This isn't meant as a criticism, by the way!)

 

[Sukie]

That's not irrational, and that's not what's going to get anyone riled up.

Science doesn't require you to prefer a better engineered device. I think that's part of the confusion... Nobody really cares what anyone else personally prefers.

I completely agree. In many ways it's a battle over nothing. We all want people to enjoy the things that they enjoy.

This discussion is good tempered and well-mannered and it's a delight to hear @PenguinMusic's thoughts, but some times the discussions do get out of hand. I can't help but feel that when this happens, it's often down to the fact that people want objective verification for their subjective preferences. There's a belief that there has to be something about the DAC itself that's making the difference and, when this is refuted scientifically, all hell breaks lose!

EDIT: The 1st line of my post was ambiguous so I've changed it.

 

[raif71]

I choose to drive a car with a manual transmission. I know without a doubt that the slick DCT available is better in pretty much every measurable respect.

I just like driving my stick-shift a lot better. That's not irrational... Just a personal choice

I remember my youthful days after getting my 1st car. It was a manual gear type of car and I couldn't imagined getting an automatic. After I married, my wife persuaded me to get an automatic. That was 20 plus years ago and we've been driving automatic ever since. Talk about WAF

 

[andreasmaaan]

I do not deny that the other one is objectively better (and that, as such, I SHOULD like it better)

To be a bit pedantic (sorry), that's not actually true, for two reasons:

1. A DAC needs to measure very badly (by DAC standards) for its imperfections to be audible; most (not all) DACs do indeed sound the same.
2. There is evidence that certain kinds of just-audible distortion are preferred by some listeners when listening to some recordings. In the unlikely event that one of the DACs you've compared performs objectively poorly enough that its imperfections are audible, there is no reason to assume that you won't prefer it for this reason.

 

[PenguinMusic]

It's good that you are totally honest. But without a blind test you don't even know if you prefer the lesser one. Suppose you did a blind test and just could not tell them apart. Would you still tell yourself that you prefer it? Isn't that like preferring one kettle for boiling water more quickly, measuring it, seeing that it boils at the same speed as the old kettle but continuing to say that it boils more quickly? Sure, it looks nicer, has a "stay hot" button. Preferring it for those reasons (features, aesthetics) makes total sense. But continuing to prefer it for speed reasons when it's not faster...hmmm... (This isn't meant as a criticism, by the way!)

Hi,

Will probably be mocked for this, but yes. Aethitics of a product does indeed matter to me.
And I can really accept that the look may have an influence on what I think I hear.
So far, I've lived with it. And I'll continue to do so.

What I've learned when coming here.
Before I buy, I check if the product has no obvious flaws.
But if it hasn't I take the one that I find looking better.
Or the one that sports features I need or would like to have.

Regards.

 

[wasnotwasnotwas]

Hi,

Will probably be mocked for this, but yes. Aethitics of a product does indeed matter to me.
And I can really accept that the look may have an influence on what I think I hear.
So far, I've lived with it. And I'll continue to do so.

What I've learned when coming here.
Before I buy, I check if the product has no obvious flaws.
But if it hasn't I take the one that I find looking better.
Or the one that sports features I need or would like to have.

Regards.

Nothing to mock in any of that. We all have to live with these things in places we currently are spending far too much time in!

Your buying plan is probably reflected by most on here if they are being honest. Appearance or maybe the "story" behind the brand/ product impacts us all to one degree or another.

 

[raistlin65]

I guess you missed my point about the difference between opinions and ideas on one hand and factually incorrect claims on the other?

I definitely agree with you about facts.

However, there's another issue. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, some are necessarily better than others.

Unfortunately, some people have the misconception that their poorly informed and argued opinion has equal weight to a well-informed, well-argued one. Just because they believe, even demand, that their opinions should be valued that way.

Despite the fact that many of them have sense enough to know that they should rely on their doctor's opinion regarding what ails them, not random person they meet on the Internet. (Or maybe I'm giving some of them too much credit?)

 

[raistlin65]

Hi,

Will probably be mocked for this, but yes. Aethitics of a product does indeed matter to me.
And I can really accept that the look may have an influence on what I think I hear.
So far, I've lived with it. And I'll continue to do so.

What I've learned when coming here.
Before I buy, I check if the product has no obvious flaws.
But if it hasn't I take the one that I find looking better.
Or the one that sports features I need or would like to have.

Regards.

I agree with @wasnotwasnotwas. It's fine to value aesthetics. And it's fine to let perception bias influence you to enjoy audio

Just don't let that bias start taking over and leading you away from the facts.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Unfortunately, some people have the misconception that their poorly informed and argued opinion has equal weight to a well-informed, well-argued one. Just because they believe, even demand, that their opinions should be valued that way.

These are very dangerous people.

 

[sergeauckland]

Hi,

Will probably be mocked for this, but yes. Aethitics of a product does indeed matter to me.
And I can really accept that the look may have an influence on what I think I hear.
So far, I've lived with it. And I'll continue to do so.

What I've learned when coming here.
Before I buy, I check if the product has no obvious flaws.
But if it hasn't I take the one that I find looking better.
Or the one that sports features I need or would like to have.

Regards.

I think pretty much everything I have in audio has been chosen that way. Find out what meets my spec for facilities, make sure the performance of all the candidates is 'good enough' then either buy the cheapest or the one that I like the look of most, in the full knowledge that there isn't a bad decision to be made.

What I personally can't accept is something that is somehow flawed, whether on performance or facilities, but I would still buy it just because, then try and justify my choice on rational grounds.

S.

 

[Julf]

Despite the fact that many of them have sense enough to know that they should rely on their doctor's opinion regarding what ails them, not random person they meet on the Internet. (Or maybe I'm giving some of them too much credit?)

Then we have the pediatricians who go "I have worked as a doctor my whole life, so do not question my claims about neurosurgery".

 

[sergeauckland]

These are very dangerous people.

The modern mantra of all opinions being equally valid is to me the most dangerous aspect of social media etc.

S.

 

[wasnotwasnotwas]

The modern mantra of all opinions being equally valid is to me the most dangerous aspect of social media etc.

S.

I'm not sure it's even a mantra. I just think some of the users have always behaved that way in real life and transported it onto social media. These are the equivalent of the pub loudmouth but no landlord to tell them to be quiet. Facebook etc just gave them a bigger pub to bore.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The BS assymetry principle is a problem on the internet. Also known as Brandolini's law.

 

[PenguinMusic]

I agree with @wasnotwasnotwas. It's fine to value aesthetics. And it's fine to let perception bias influence you to enjoy audio

Just don't let that bias start taking over and leading you away from the facts.

Hi,

As I wrote, coming around here helped a lot.
It is not that I take the "best" device according to measures.
But before I buy a device I check here if that has been tested and if so, that it's not flawed.
If it is flawed, I do not get it, despite it's looks and functionnality.
If it is not, then I buy the device I like and that should give satisfaction.

Because, it has been written by others that, when a given threshold is reached, difference is measurable but barely audible if audible at all.

So, looks can rule out what device will be chosen and which will be left aside

Regards.