Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[MDAguy]

The sound signature DAC crowd will proclaim that a dongle cannot be anywhere as good as a desktop DAC. And when you ask why, they will say because it's a dongle.

So besides advising an "Audiophile" to sell their $30K DAC and invest in a Dongle, what other parts of a hi-fi system would you say also falls into the snake oil realm?

 

[Robh3606]

All DAC's have an analog output stage. Could the "sound" of the DAC be effected by the quality of the output stage??

Rob

 

[MDAguy]

All DAC's have an analog output stage. Could the "sound" of the DAC be effected by the quality of the output stage??

Rob

Oh.. Be careful! That is libel to ruffle a few feathers here....

 

[andreasmaaan]

So besides advising an "Audiophile" to sell their $30K DAC and invest in a Dongle, what other parts of a hi-fi system would you say also falls into the snake oil realm?

Expensive DACs aren’t “snake oil” if they perform objectively better. But that’s a separate question from whether any objective gains are audible.

All DAC's have an analog output stage. Could the "sound" of the DAC be effected by the quality of the output stage??

Rob

Yes, of course that could be the case. But when a DAC is measured, the analogue output stage is also measured. So if potentially audible issues are present, they will be visible in the measurements (regardless whether or not they are a result of the analogue output stage of the DAC).

 

[Robh3606]

Oh.. Be careful! That is libel to ruffle a few feathers here....

Why? Just a point of discussion.

Rob

 

[raistlin65]

So besides advising an "Audiophile" to sell their $30K DAC and invest in a Dongle, what other parts of a hi-fi system would you say also falls into the snake oil realm?

I don't understand what your talking about. That's not what I said???

 

[Mnyb]

ok, gonna try to see if we can distill this 115 pages of thread to something like this..


What do the DAC's that suck, or sound badly all have in common? It's safe to assume the PCM code and 1's and 0's are being turned into a sine wave that fits with in the Nyquest theorem ... so what's different?

My theory? Analogue output section, isolation (digital from analogue section), as well as power supply isolation, and other "quality" engineering factors.

But surely there is one or two things that stand out in common with bad vs good sounding DAC's..

My answer would be really crap engineering following some confused cult agenda ?
NOS ladder DAC followed by badly designed discrete output stage because feedback and IC’s are evil ?
Wonder if not audio note have managed to do it making performance so horrible that can hear it ? But products from them are so insanely expensive so we probably never see a test on ASR.

The DAC chip manufacturers do have reference designs as examples for their customers .
So even the most uninspired meh painting by numbers design will most likely achieve transparent performance.

 

[Frank Dernie]

ok, gonna try to see if we can distill this 115 pages of thread to something like this..


What do the DAC's that suck, or sound badly all have in common? It's safe to assume the PCM code and 1's and 0's are being turned into a sine wave that fits with in the Nyquest theorem ... so what's different?

My theory? Analogue output section, isolation (digital from analogue section), as well as power supply isolation, and other "quality" engineering factors.

But surely there is one or two things that stand out in common with bad vs good sounding DAC's..

I treat any bit of hifi as a "black box" in as much as I don't care what is inside it, either in terms of the chip analogue stage or power supply is concerned since the only access to it is the input connection and the only output from it comes from the output connections.
If for the same input the difference between the output of two DAC boxes is below audibility any "sound signature" difference is imagined, particularly by people who get obsessive over which DAC chip, or fancy componentry or power supply technology is inside the box.
If one is less accurate to such an extent the differences are genuinely audible it probably, IME, has a weird reconstruction filter or, much worse, none.
That doesn't mean some people may not like the sound it adds.

 

[threni]

Oh.. Be careful! That is libel to ruffle a few feathers here....

(The word's liable)

Whatever gave you the idea that it's a remotely controversial suggestion? If any of the components of any piece of equipment didn't contribute to the sound in any way then they would't be needed in the equipment in the first place.

 

[Julf]

Whatever gave you the idea that it's a remotely controversial suggestion? If any of the components of any piece of equipment didn't contribute to the sound in any way then they would't be needed in the equipment in the first place.

Fuses (in the power supply part) are a trivial example of components that don't contribute to the sound in any way but are still needed.

 

[Frank Dernie]

So besides advising an "Audiophile" to sell their $30K DAC and invest in a Dongle, what other parts of a hi-fi system would you say also falls into the snake oil realm?

I know you are being facetious but, taking this seriously, only a few people, those who use a phone as the source for their hifi, would us a dongle DAC in a hifi system.
I used to use a system with separate DAC box, ie digital input and fixed analogue output. Anybody wanting to use a conventional preamp or integrated because they also use other sources, as I do, may well choose this option.
Others may well be happy to pay lots for the beautiful construction and styling of their choice - me for example.
OTOH maybe with one or two inputs and active speakers something sophisticated and not expensive for its functions like a RME box with volume control and filters built in would be best.
What is clear from tests here and to me in my own listening tests, level matched and blind, is that sound quality is not a reason to spend more, looks, reliability reputation and functions may be.
I would say the same about preamps.
Power amps, speakers and record players definitely not, though price is a poor indicator of performance in all 3 of these.
Given that the current version retail price of the preamp and DAC I used to use is close to $200,000 I could have saved a lot if I had done my controlled listening tests earlier.

 

[raistlin65]

I know you are being facetious but, taking this seriously, only a few people, those who use a phone as the source for their hifi, would us a dongle DAC in a hifi system.

I use the Tempotec Sonata HD Pro dongle with my desktop setup and would use one in my living room home audio setup if I needed it. Does that mean something's wrong with me?

Based on the data in Amir's database, it measures better than the Modi 3, many other standalone DACs, and what is built in most receivers and amps that come with a DAC.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I use the Tempotec Sonata HD Pro dongle with my desktop setup and would use one in my living room home audio setup if I needed it. Does that mean something's wrong with me?

Based on the data in Amir's database, it measures better than the Modi 3, many other standalone DACs, and what is built in most receivers and amps that come with a DAC.

No.
As long as it has all the functions you need, why not?

 

[BDWoody]

So besides advising an "Audiophile" to sell their $30K DAC and invest in a Dongle, what other parts of a hi-fi system would you say also falls into the snake oil realm?

Everything short of the speaker can be found in snake oil versions.
Cables...power conditioners...special vibration isolating stands for solid state devices...
Tubes in general are almost a special sub-realm, or can be.

 

[Julf]

Everything short of the speaker can be found in snake oil versions.
Cables...power conditioners...special vibration isolating stands for solid state devices...
Tubes in general are almost a special sub-realm, or can be.

There are many snake oil speakers too...

 

[threni]

Fuses (in the power supply part) are a trivial example of components that don't contribute to the sound in any way but are still needed.

OK, anything in the signal path. (Plus you don't need a fuse if you have wire...)

 

[MDAguy]

this guy seems to capture it well... there's a balance to the argument and he seems to get it.

I especially like the analogy of the symphony performer who'd rather play the Stradivarius violin to a normal store bought violin.

 

[wasnotwasnotwas]

this guy seems to capture it well... there's a balance to the argument and he seems to get it.

I especially like the analogy of the symphony performer who'd rather play the Stradivarius violin to a normal store bought violin.

Uh-oh. Flame on.

 

[BDWoody]

this guy seems to capture it well... there's a balance to the argument and he seems to get it.

I especially like the analogy of the symphony performer who'd rather play the Stradivarius violin to a normal store bought violin.

I don't think he understands sampling theory.

 

[andreasmaaan]

this guy seems to capture it well... there's a balance to the argument and he seems to get it.

I especially like the analogy of the symphony performer who'd rather play the Stradivarius violin to a normal store bought violin.

Ironic that he should mention Stradivaris:

Notably, the soloists couldn't tell an old violin from a new one: Their guesses were no more accurate than the flip of a coin.