Revel F328Be Speaker Review

[texbychoice]

If we are going this way so what is the difference between this site and whathifi and streophile? If we can't trust the measurements it is a massive issue. It is all down to personal taste like any other site.

Maybe the basis for the numerical score is explained somewhere I missed. Is it based strictly on listening impressions (subjective)? If so, that is fine as the measurement data is available for an interested party to evaluate, just like many other review sources.

If the numerical score is other than subjective, then there has to be a documented scoring system.

 

[JohnBooty]

Of course, we would like the entire signal chain to be SOTA from 1hz to 100khz, and capable of 150dB at 0% THD to boot. Maybe an anechoic chamber for each of us, and perhaps a giant battery the size of a cargo container in the backyard so we can run everything off of nice clean uninterruptible power. And maybe some way to recreate the smell of our favorite opera house as well. We should not stop chasing that dream. In reality, we all have limited time/money/floorspace budgets and we have to think about how to allocate them.

You do realize that when we accept “deep enough” and “a lot of music doesn’t need” etc, this is not SOTA anymore?

You do, I know, that’s why your system [has 2 subs + EQ]

There's roughly $2K of gear in my primary music system (child's play by ASR standards!) and probably 3/5 of it was spent on a single octave. If I had a time machine and was doing it all over again with the benefit of experience I'd probably allocate funds differently.

The lowest string on a bass guitar with standard tuning has a fundamental frequency of approximately 41hz. Popular music and even much orchestral music has been recorded and mastered to sound great on systems that don't even dig that deeply, and obviously sub-bass is essentially irrelevant to vocal reproduction of any sort.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Let's have a show of hands for people who advocated DSP and are using computational optimization of these three parameters:

It is also possible (indeed desirable) to "optimise" these parameters manually if setting up a system without automated bass management, i.e:

1. measure
2. adjust gain
3. adjust delay (and/or adjust phase using all-pass filters)
4. equalise
5. measure again, repeat if necessary

A bit slower, but not so slow in the context of installing a permanent setup. And in some cases, capable of giving more refined results than any technique that doesn't use all-pass filtering and/or is limited to just one PEQ.

EDIT: sorry @amirm, on second reading of your post, I realise I'd misunderstood your claims regarding the SFM system. I'd thought the claim was that it was the best way to do this kind of set-up, period.

But now re-reading, the claim is merely about computational optimisation. I 100% agree. I don't know of any system that computationally optimises in a way that's this sophisticated.

FWIW, it seems to me that a similar computer optimisation could be done in something like VituixCAD (which is freeware).

 

[Dimifoot]

Multiple subs are powerful in the way they provide even response in multiple seats. But you need proper and effective EQ to do it right. It is not "just buy a bookshelf and add subs" kind of solution.

So there is no confusion: you can do well with subs but be prepared for a lot of optimization and experimentation.

Yes, that's the idea. And I never said it was easy.
Most people will need to pay a calibrator to set it up properly.

 

[Dimifoot]

Of course, we would like the entire signal chain to be SOTA from 1hz to 100khz, and capable of 150dB at 0% THD to boot.

Don't exaggerate.
No, if we are talking SOTA, we need 20-20.000Hz, inaudible THD, with a smooth down-sloping target curve, and Reference Levels at the listening position (83-85db +20db peaks+ some headroom), so more than 105dbs in the first octave- since its down sloping.

Is this Revel able to hit 105+dbs in 20-40Hz after Eq at the listening position?
If not, it needs subs.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

SFM is patented so the other schemes are not the same. Let's have a show of hands for people who advocated DSP and are using computational optimization of these three parameters:

I recently picked up a JBL BassQ which implements SFM.

Will get to it soon.

 

[tktran303]

Here were my speakers, circa 2015.

this is with “only” two 8” woofers per side, in 100L; smaller than the F328Be.

The anechoic F3 is about 42Hz. the F10 is about 20Hz

Floyd has stated that the F10 is more important is determining bass quality.

For a pair, out in a field (eg. music festival); or anechoic measurements (eg. NRC) or as determined by Klippel NFS (subtracts room effect), it’s theoretical maximum SPL for a single speaker at @1m, is 97dB at the bottom octave (20-40Hz).

This is displacement limited (ie. due number of drivers, cone size, excursion of 7mm) not power limited (only needs 100W to hit this)

For a pair, in a room (20x30’ room with 12’ ceilings) look what happens-


http://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ical-evolution&p=601628&viewfull=1#post601628

Revel’s design, with 3 modern 8” woofers would likely hit reference levels at 20-40Hz in a listening room...

 

[JohnBooty]

Don't exaggerate.

...fair enough.

No, if we are talking SOTA, we need 20-20.000Hz, inaudible THD, with a smooth down-sloping target curve, and Reference Levels at the listening position (83-85db +20db peaks+ some headroom), so more than 105dbs in the first octave- since its down sloping.

Is this Revel able to hit 105dbs in 20-40Hz after Eq at the listening position?
If not, it needs subs.

...for some listening material.

The lowest string on a bass guitar with standard tuning has a fundamental frequency of approximately 41hz. Popular music and even much orchestral music has been recorded and mastered to sound great on systems that don't even dig that deeply, and obviously sub-bass is essentially irrelevant to vocal reproduction of any sort.

I realize I'm splitting hairs. I agree completely with your facts. I just have a slightly different conclusion. This is partially because I approach the hobby with a great deal of consideration for newcomers as they are essential to the hobby's future. So many of them come into the hobby thinking they "need" a subwoofer, and while one certainly needs multiple subwoofers for certain things, subwoofers should probably be the very last thing they tackle.

 

[hardisj]

They buy toy speakers and then find they have to buy a separate woofer. Yes, the D&D 8c is also an expensive joke.
Salon2 and F328Be do not need a subwoofer.

An expensive joke that has extension +10dB down to 20Hz in my room...

 

[richard12511]

In 2008 Kevin Voecks told Larry Greenhill in a interview for Stereophile compairing the Salon2 versus Studio2:

The Salon2 moves more air and has greater output, particularly in the bass. The Salon2's three 8" woofers have a combined area equivalent to a 14" woofer, but the heat generated is spread out among three voice-coils. This means that you won't get the heat buildup that leads to dynamic compression. (As voice-coils heat up, impedance goes up and leads to a mismatch in a speaker's filter network.) The Salon2 is more resistant to dynamic compression than the Studio2 because it has more drivers to dissipate the heat. The Salon2 also has a smaller midrange than the Studio2. This leads to a better match between tweeter and midrange drivers, helping control the Salon2's off-axis response.

Seems to imply the 3 woofers in the Salon2 are superior performance wise to dual subwoofer augmentation. Having recently purchased a "pre-owned" pair of Salon2's I can confirm this using the miniDSP SHD and Dirac. This compared to a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 8's and 2 JL Audio f110 subs with Dirac.

This is my own subjective opinion, however, it is confirmed by my wife's greater complaint ratio.

I don't see where Mr. Voecks is saying that the Salon2 on its own is better than the Salon2 + 4 subs. Where does he say that? Did you maybe not post the full quote? Or maybe I'm misreading. To clarify, I read that quote as Mr. Voecks comparing the Salon2 against the Studio2, not the Salon2 against the Salon2 +4 subs well placed, integrated, and time aligned.

What do you make of Floyd Toole's opinion that multiple separate subs are a requirement for high fidelity bass, even with the Salon2(which he also owns)? Are you saying Floyd is incorrect?

 

[hardisj]

Oh, and here's a comparison of the Dutch & Dutch 8c's with the F226Be's I reviewed last month, MMM from the same seated position. The DD8c isn't currently positioned in the best spot; could bring them out from the walls and it might help to fill in the floor bounce null between 100-200Hz (which is about an octave lower than the floor bounce null of the F226Be's as they were about 3 feet from the front wall), and would also smooth the lowest octaves.

Point being, the DD8c's are +15dB over the F226Be in-room.

 

[Bear123]

We shouldn’t have to explain again and again in an objectivists audio science forum, why multisub+room Eq is mandatory for proper bass reproduction in rooms.

It has already been well explained and scientifically documented in chapter 8, pages 230-251, of @Floyd Toole
Sound reproduction : the acoustics and psychoacoustics of loudspeakers and rooms.

I am not saying it’s easy to get it right, but it’s the only way.

Actually, it is really easy to get right. Plop two decent subs in decent spots, and run Audysey on a $799 Denon AVR for razor flat bass response. Also, room correction on the speakers below 3-500ish Hz as required for high fidelity. Revel F36 towers plus a pair of Rythmik FV15HP..about $4k and I wouldn't downgrade to a pair of tower speakers without subs at any price.

Not arguing with you, I realize you are a strong advocate for multiple subs if high fidelity is the goal. Just saying that its not that hard to get right.

 

[tktran303]

Oh, and here's a comparison with the F226Be's I reviewed last month, MMM from the same seated position.

View attachment 92869

thanks for the reality check. Two 6.5” woofers, flat to about 30Hz in room.

Yes, will benefit from a sub to extend to lowest octave.

F328Be- 3 x 8” drivers- may be flat; in room; to 20Hz?

I think that’s the data point we’re hanging out for.

 

[DonH56]

Nice job @amirm

There is no F208Be and never was; 'net speculation. The product name is (or became) the F228Be when it was released.

The JBL Synthesis version of the Trinnov Altitude, the SDP-75, will do SFM but you have to jump through a few hoops. That is different from what Trinnov is doing. I hope to implement SFM but life and work have been insane so have not started the process. I also have to get REW working again; a Windows update several (many) months ago broke my ASIO driver and I've never gotten it fixed.

 

[FrankF]

I don't see where Mr. Voecks is saying that the Salon2 on its own is better than the Salon2 + 4 subs. Where does he say that? Did you maybe not post the full quote? Or maybe I'm misreading. To clarify, I read that quote as Mr. Voecks comparing the Salon2 against the Studio2, not the Salon2 against the Salon2 +4 subs well placed, integrated, and time aligned subs.

What do you make of Floyd Toole's opinion that multiple separate subs are a requirement for high fidelity bass, even with the Salon2(which he also owns)? Are you saying Floyd is incorrect?

He didn't say 4 subs but implied 2 subs.

https://www.stereophile.com/interviews/608kev/index.html

 

[ROOSKIE]

Don't exaggerate.
No, if we are talking SOTA, we need 20-20.000Hz, inaudible THD, with a smooth down-sloping target curve, and Reference Levels at the listening position (83-85db +20db peaks+ some headroom), so more than 105dbs in the first octave- since its down sloping.

Is this Revel able to hit 105+dbs in 20-40Hz after Eq at the listening position?
If not, it needs subs.

The three subwoofers used in this model are fairly accurately represented by modeling the SB Acoustics drivers someone used earlier. Put them into any basic woofer modeling program and you will be able to fairly accurately calculate the max SPL and translate to the volume of your room. The THD of course would have to be measured but it looks pretty good so far @ 96db/1meter.
Just based on eyeballing it I'd say that yes, the 6 total 8" drivers in such a large box can generally hit those notes in a medium sized room at 105db.
Of course you can add more bass and some folks really should. Tailor it to taste and usage. (There are people with 10, 12" subs in their automobiles.)
There is no reason that if you are bass head/ explosion aficionado and really have a large room/theater that you ought to feel limited by anything.
Who cares if these floor standers are not world record low frequency effects machines? If you have 16k for two speakers you likely have more $ to buy several 12-15-18" subs that can honestly fill in the explosion/dinosaur zone from 15hrz-25hrz.

By the way touching on what @JohnBooty discussed earlier about bass.
I listened to the version of this speaker without the Beryllium tweeters at Music Direct in Chicago. As impressive as that was on one hand on the other it wasn't likely as I didn't listen to any bass heavy/ bass driven tracks there.
If you have cash and just want to buy a big sweet speaker, a big Revel tower is awesome - done. The speakers do sound awesome. That said on the test tracks I used which that day generally did not pose a bass challenge (I was really looking to see how the midrange and treble came across) I was not at any point wishing I had them over my current much less expensive carefully selected and curated speaker systems. (in fact I was pretty sure that I have better sound for the tracks I used there)
Honestly I was just glad that my family got to hear them so they know what awesome sound is & what my stereo(s) back in Minneapolis sound(s) like. You can get the Revel sound for less money and if bass is secondary towers are not required. (You will likely invest A LOT of time getting to that sound for that less $.)
Now I do like bass (in terms of music not theater sound effects) and wish I could go back and play some additional music on the big Revels. I'd be very curious about that and currently am reworking my set-up at home with a much different bass set-up. I'd love to hear that low ultra low distortion bass to give my DIY work a frame of reference that is commercial and real.

 

[restorer-john]

There are people with 10, 12" subs in their automobiles.

Let's not forget there are plenty of audiophiles with 12" and 15" woofers in their main speakers. They certainly don't need or want so-called subwoofers in many cases. Not everybody buys tall slim tower speakers with an array of small 6.5"-8" drivers which don't have even have the combined effective piston area of a single 12", letalone a 15" or 16". All with tiny little VC diameters and low efficiency, low power handling and thermal compression issues.

Find someone with a pair of vintage JBL L-300s or L-250ti and have a listen. Then tell me, a subwoofer is "mandatory".

 

[Doodski]

Let's not forget there are plenty of audiophiles with 12" and 15" woofers in their main speakers. They certainly don't need or want so-called subwoofers in many cases. Not everybody buys tall slim tower speakers with an array of small 6.5"-8" drivers which don't have even have the combined effective piston area of a single 12", letalone a 15" or 16". All with tiny little VC diameters and low efficiency, low power handling and thermal compression issues.

Find someone with a pair of vintage JBL L-300s or L-250ti and have a listen. Then tell me, a subwoofer is "mandatory".

Ohhh DrOOL! The JBL L250Ti is my favourite all time speaker for bang for the buck.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/jbl-250ti-loudspeaker
Surprisingly Stereophile gave them a crappy review.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Let's not forget there are plenty of audiophiles with 12" and 15" woofers in their main speakers. They certainly don't need or want so-called subwoofers in many cases. Not everybody buys tall slim tower speakers with an array of small 6.5"-8" drivers which don't have even have the combined effective piston area of a single 12", letalone a 15" or 16". All with tiny little VC diameters and low efficiency, low power handling and thermal compression issues.

Find someone with a pair of vintage JBL L-300s or L-250ti and have a listen. Then tell me, a subwoofer is "mandatory".

No doubt.
When I move in the next year or so into a bigger listening space I am going with 15" woofers in a three way DIY I am planning.
Should be excellent.

 

[sfdoddsy]

FWIW, Polish magazine Audio tested the F228Be and the F208 with measurements.

The bass performance seems to be basically identical:

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/3091-revel-f228be#laboratory

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/kolumny-glosnikowe/2413-revel-performa3-f208#laboratory

Both, however, are front ported.