Topping D10s USB DAC and Bridge Review

[Veri]

Also because the D10S has internal voltage regulators which are SMPS, therefore, powering it with one type or the other makes no difference ...

Yup, exactly right.

 

[Davide]

I wonder how did you listen to it without knowing if the case won't even close with that giant red skyscraper.

Oh yeah ... it's just impossible right?
Actually, I'm just someone doing hidden propaganda at Burson ...
Really...

 

[Veri]

Oh yeah ... it's just impossible right?
Actually, I'm just someone doing hidden propaganda at Burson ...
Really...

To be fair, no test on this website so far has proven any differences with op-amp swaps.. None.

 

[Davide]

To be fair, no test on this website so far has proven any differences with op-amp swaps.. None.

the beauty is that even high-level electronics designers no longer rely on measurements beyond certain levels because these are not entirely representative of the sound characteristics ...
on this forum there is the designer of Allo Revolution ... just to name one.
I honestly don't understand why being so dull instead of taking into consideration the idea (which is quite obvious) that classic measurements do not analyze all the possible and imaginable aspects of a varied and dynamic waveform such as audio...

 

[Veri]

the beauty is that even high-level electronics designers no longer rely on measurements beyond certain levels because these are not entirely representative of the sound characteristics ...
on this forum there is the designer of Allo Revolution ... just to name one.
I honestly don't understand why being so dull instead of taking into consideration the idea (which is quite obvious) that classic measurements do not analyze all the possible and imaginable aspects of a varied and dynamic waveform such as audio...

It is silly to think that a "varied and dynamic" waveform cannot be fully analysed with the technology of today, it's far too easy to "believe" without proof, that won't convince anyone on this forum here. I mean enjoy whatever you want, just don't push it onto others.. this is not the place.

 

[somebodyelse]

the beauty is that even high-level electronics designers no longer rely on measurements beyond certain levels because these are not entirely representative of the sound characteristics ...
on this forum there is the designer of Allo Revolution ... just to name one.
I honestly don't understand why being so dull instead of taking into consideration the idea (which is quite obvious) that classic measurements do not analyze all the possible and imaginable aspects of a varied and dynamic waveform such as audio.the principle of science is to find out what has never been proven before.

You'd meet less resistance if you followed the scientific method, including the necessary controls to determine whether there's an audible difference. The controls are necessary because previous scientific work has demonstrated mechanisms by which people think there's a difference when there isn't, or fail to detect a difference that they should be able to for that matter. If you can demonstrate a reliably audible difference between items of electronics that measure identically then you will have found something new and interesting, and people will start investigating measurement methods to quantify this new effect. Without the controls people will continue to assume you're falling into the traps the controls are there to prevent.

 

[BDWoody]

I honestly don't understand why being so dull instead of taking into consideration the idea (which is quite obvious) that classic measurements do not analyze all the possible and imaginable aspects of a varied and dynamic waveform such as audio...

The idea may be obvious, but so far, not a single person has been able to demonstrate (with actual listening controls) that they can hear something that doesn't show up in measurements.

Once someone does that, we can start looking for the missing physics. Until then, we simply see missing controls on listening 'tests'.

Science can be dull...
Having a wallet full of cash that wasn't wasted on misconceptions isn't.

 

[Davide]

But I agree with the scientific approach, just as I am aware (having also tested it myself) that some audio equipment does not produce any audible effect ...

I also reported the example of the SMPS vs Linear power supply ... for me the difference is imperceptible or doesn't exist.

But in other cases the differences are indeed there, and it is not suggestion ... any attentive and unprejudiced person would notice it.

Thinking like you it seems that a D10S sounds like (if not better) than a Chord Qutest ... If you try to listen to them both in same setup (as I did) you will see that it does not.

Then, if one has no time, no desire, no money to make this comparison, he does not necessarily have to say that it is only suggestion ... it is for obtuse it is not for scientists.

I also know that we are talking on a scientific level, but I don't have an oscilloscope with which to record the waveforms to compare them ... Is that why I should dullly ignore what I hear?

 

[Veri]

But I agree with the scientific approach, just as I am aware (having also tested it myself) that some audio equipment does not produce any audible effect ...

I also reported the example of the SMPS vs Linear power supply ... for me the difference is imperceptible or doesn't exist.

Point is, (while I'm glad you don't really sense any difference between SMPS/LPS), the difference with the burson op-amp swap; if audible, should definitely show up one way or another in some proper measurements. If nothing were to be found it's just simply really hard to actually prove these differences you're hearing, except for a some blind test logs maybe; that would be a good test..

 

[Killingbeans]

I measured the frequency and phase response, but obviously there are no particular differences. Surely these are found elsewhere, such as on transients, because by ear even if someone refuses to believe them, they are perceived ...

But the frequency response holds exactly the same information as a transient response? Even if there is an audible difference, how do you know it can be classified as an improvement? It could be distortion, instability/oscillation or just an elevated noise floor.

it is not a question of awe because I listened without knowing which opamp was there (I had them replaced by a colleague).

Just a single swap, or could you identify the Burson consistently in the blind?

 

[highpurityusbcable]

Oh yeah ... it's just impossible right?
Actually, I'm just someone doing hidden propaganda at Burson ...
Really...

I didn't mean to be stingy or offend you somehow. It's just this opamp is humongous and looks comical to me, especially when it doesn't allow to close DAC's case.
I also wanted to experiment with swapping before my unit has arrived but lost interest in the end.

 

[Davide]

But the frequency response holds exactly the same information as a transient response? Even if there is an audible difference, how do you know it can be classified as an improvement? It could be distortion, instability/oscillation or just an elevated noise floor.



Just a single swap, or could you identify the Burson consistently in the blind?

But in fact for opamp swap I never said that it is about improvement or greater fidelity ... Simply different. Whether it is distortion or noise I don't know, but according to what is believed here, as there are no measurable differences (like distortion or noise) there should be no hearing differences ...

However I have swapped the opamps a lot of times, it is not a single test ... and if you listen carefully you can hear the differences. Nothing changes with normal or distracted listening ... Of course.

 

[frogmeat69]

Let's please stop here with the op amp ramblings and taking this thread into shitsville like some others have gone.

 

[Veri]

Let's please stop here with the op amp ramblings and taking this thread into shitsville like some others have gone.

Well these discussions always pop up sporadically, just because the op-amp swap capability is part of the marketing of this product.

 

[raif71]

Well these discussions always pop up sporadically, just because the op-amp swap capability is part of the marketing of this product.

I'm in the camp that believes why provide opamp swapping if there won't be any differences. Just doesn't make sense. No company should do this to consumers.

 

[Veri]

I'm in the camp that believes why provide opamp swapping if there won't be any differences. Just doesn't make sense. No company should do this to consumers.

Because consumers will be intrigued by it and will want to try it I agree it's kinda lame, but I think it does work for sales.

 

[Killingbeans]

I'm in the camp that believes why provide opamp swapping if there won't be any differences. Just doesn't make sense. No company should do this to consumers.

They just supply what the consumers demand. IMO, it's a bit like 32bit/768kHz and oxygen free copper (to name a few things). Completely pointless, but everybody wants it. Some myths skip the snake-oil stage altogether and become gospel with little effort.

 

[frogmeat69]

Well these discussions always pop up sporadically, just because the op-amp swap capability is part of the marketing of this product.

I know, just don't want to see what's happening in other threads start here, back and forth with the same old crap of the soundstage opening so wide and far you start hearing the angels sing with this op amp, cable, etc...
Sucks going through 10 pages of shit and bickering to find out any info or discussion worth a minute of anyone's time. And putting a bunch of people on ignore doesn't help either, because then you don't know what the hell is going on at all trying to follow a disjointed thread, lol.

 

[Davide]

But if we want to speak only from a scientific point of view we must be open to any consideration. The blessed measurements don't consider every aspect of the audio, just the main ones.
For example, the phase of the frequencies is never measured (and with different opamp it changes, see datasheet).
The transients response is never measured (or non measurable) but it changes even just with different capacitors.
The Seebeck effect is never measured (or non measurable), but it exists.
The audio analyzer itself has its limits and uncertainties of measurement (any instrument has it, it is metrology).
In short, establishing an axiom on the audibility of electronics is not scientific ... just as it is not scientific to establish that the auditory perception of the human it is objective and not subjective.
But most of all I don't understand why always criticizing oneself by hiding behind "science" rather than making constructive speeches or testing in first person ...
I repeat, according to some, a Chord Qutest sounds worse than a D10S because it measures worse ... it will be true, but listen to them and honestly say which one you like the most ... the answer is that the music is not just science.
If not really, all the equipment and audio manufacturers in the world are scammers ...

 

[Sukie]

But if we want to speak only from a scientific point of view we must be open to any consideration. The blessed measurements don't consider every aspect of the audio, just the main ones.
For example, the phase of the frequencies is never measured (and with different opamp it changes, see datasheet).
The transients response is never measured (or non measurable) but it changes even just with different capacitors.
The Seebeck effect is never measured (or non measurable), but it exists.
The audio analyzer itself has its limits and uncertainties of measurement (any instrument has it, it is metrology).
In short, establishing an axiom on the audibility of electronics is not scientific ... just as it is not scientific to establish that the auditory perception of the human it is objective and not subjective.
But most of all I don't understand why always criticizing oneself by hiding behind "science" rather than making constructive speeches or testing in first person ...
I repeat, according to some, a Chord Qutest sounds worse than a D10S because it measures worse ... it will be true, but listen to them and honestly say which one you like the most ... the answer is that the music is not just science.

This has been discussed ad infinitum on this site. Do we really need another discussion on measurements etc.?