"Home Theater" Speakers

[flyzipper]

Anyway, I'm starting first with the idea that once I find good LR speakers and subs I really like, then I'll fill out the rest accordingly (matching center, not necessarily matching surrounds, as space permits).

I'm 80% convinced I won't replace my centre when I rebuild my system.

Since I'm the only user of my setup, a phantom centre performs very well, and the dialogue blends much better VS my current dedicated centre channel speaker (a "matching" horizontal unit placed below my TV panel, and angled up).

To me, the benefits of foregoing a dedicated centre channel speaker are:

• reduce expense of LCR speakers by 1/3rd (only need 2 instead of 3 matching speakers)
• eliminate the expense of acoustically transparent screen (needed to properly place the C channel of the LCR trio)
• avoids sub-optimal design & placement of a horizontally oriented specialty centre channel speaker.
• affords flexibility to use a TV, rather than a projector/screen

If I do opt for a dedicated centre channel, it will be with 3 identical LCR speakers and an acoustically transparent screen.

 

[Sancus]

I think the center channel significantly improves sound stage especially if your setup is fairly wide, regardless of where you're sitting. In fact, some people want to go even further than this and have front wides in addition to L/C/R. But I think that's more useful for rather large rooms/setups. I also feel like the center improves clarity of vocals/dialogue. I say that as someone who used phantom center for many years, tested out having a center, and decided to go with a center from then on. This topic has been discussed a lot of times though. I think it's fair to say the center speaker does have value, but if you need to drop it for practical reasons, it's not the end of the world or anything. The typical poorly designed MTM 2-way center is quite likely to be worse than no center in a lot of cases, certainly.

This is one of the main reasons I picked Genelec 8351Bs for L/C/R because I think a horizontally placed coaxial is the perfect center speaker. And I can get it close enough(6-8" or so below) the height of the mains. Granted, that's too expensive for this thread's stated goals. The JBL SCS 8/12 are coaxial surrounds though and I'm curious how they perform.

 

[Tom C]

I’m trying to put a system together now, and am considering two smaller, matching speakers at the center, one run as a regular center channel below the screen, and the other as a height speaker above the screen. Both aimed at LP. Any thoughts on that idea? Has anyone tried something similar?

 

[flyzipper]

... I think it's fair to say the center speaker does have value, but if you need to drop it for practical reasons, it's not the end of the world or anything. The typical poorly designed MTM 2-way center is quite likely to be worse than no center in a lot of cases, certainly... I think a horizontally placed coaxial is the perfect center speaker. And I can get it close enough(6-8" or so below) the height of the mains

Agree that a poorly designed centre is to be avoided.

For me, the "practical" reason for dropping the centre when using a TV is better performance of the overall home theatre, which includes video.

I'm glad your solution works for you, but placing the centre slightly too low, unavoidably yields TV placement that's slightly too high**, and those are trade-offs I'd prefer not to make.

(** unless the TV is really small)

 

[Chromatischism]

I've had the same experience and internal debate with myself in my setup. I lose more by adding a center speaker than I gain. The plasma is currently at the perfect height, and it would have to be raised. Even still, the speaker would be too low. It costs a lot, which leaves me with less dollars for other speakers. The L/R sharing the center signal are twice as capable as an identical center speaker would be. And, it's a narrow room where I'm always in the center, further diminishing the benefit.

Since my S400's image so dang well in my symmetrical room as it is, I'll settle for the phantom in the center of the screen. Maybe in a future setup in a different room, I'll have a center speaker.

 

[Trouble Maker]

I never thought high SPL from those kind of surrounds was very important, but maybe I'm wrong? I would assume just about any well-measuring reasonably priced passive speaker there (e.g. SVS, or others) would suffice.

Anyway, I'm starting first with the idea that once I find good LR speakers and subs I really like, then I'll fill out the rest accordingly (matching center, not necessarily matching surrounds, as space permits).

I've been going through the 5.x.x setup I would like next in my head, and I'm almost on the same path as you, except for I think the center is the lynch-pin. Well performing centers at not very high prices and large sizes seem hard to come by. My starting point is with systems that have a good LCR, especially focusing on the center since it is so critical for home theater. Of course if you are not as price or size constrained it's not as much of an issue. It seems like most 2 way MTM centers do not perform very well, and to get into 3 way WTMW the price and size jump is quite large. For example in the Revel lineup I could do (afford cost and size) of M16, M105/6, but not the C208 from a cost or size viewpoint.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the last few replies here before I replied. I wasn't trying to beat up a covered topic.

 

[Trouble Maker]

...but placing the centre slightly too low, unavoidably yields TV placement that's slightly too high**, and those are trade-offs I'd prefer not to make.

The plasma is currently at the perfect height, and it would have to be raised. Even still, the speaker would be too low.

Is there something I'm missing, or would it be OK to angle up the center if you put it below the TV to aim it roughly at/slighty above* MLP? How to aim would depend on vertical directivity sweet spot. This is essentially what I plan on doing. I may even go with some in/on walls and do this; like Revel S16s all of the way around.

Of course this wouldn't work well with 2 row home theater, not much direct sound would get to the 2nd row. But this situation is probably pretty rare. At that point, maybe put it above and aim it down between the 2 rows for a compromise or just at the 1st row if prioritizing that row. But this seems like a strange setup to me. At that point just do it 'correctly' and use an acoustically transparent screen and put it behind it. Most home theater setups like this are probably using a projector.

Edit: With a previous system/apartment we had a TV hung on the wall. I had a shelf level with the top of the TV, put the center on it and propped the back up to angle it down. It was only a 40" TV centered about eye level so it wasn't too high. I also hid all of the network stuff and a power strip on the underside of that shelf. The TV was on a full motion mount to aim it where we wanted, move it out easily to get behind it. I put floating shelves to the right of the TV for AVR and other HT/gaming equipment.

 

[Chromatischism]

Yeah. Most of our troubles are due to having a flat panel display.

 

[Trouble Maker]

Yeah. Most of our troubles are due to having a flat panel display.

This has IMHO been the biggest thing that has enabled high quality home theater experience for many. Before you could get some super high dollar still not very big tube TV. Expensive, huge and usually not very high TV quality rear projection TV. Or a projector, which was probably not very bright. For rear projection or projector to be very good was prohibitively expensive. So, flat screens have cause this small issue of where to put the center but are the only reason many can even have a theater like experience in the home to begin with. Really what needs to happen is the speaker industry needs to catch up and make something that works better with wall mounted TVs.

 

[echopraxia]

This has IMHO been the biggest thing that has enabled high quality home theater experience for many. Before you could get some super high dollar still not very big tube TV. Expensive, huge and usually not very high TV quality rear projection TV. Or a projector, which was probably not very bright. For rear projection or projector to be very good was prohibitively expensive. So, flat screens have cause this small issue of where to put the center but are the only reason many can even have a theater like experience in the home to begin with. Really what needs to happen is the speaker industry needs to catch up and make something that works better with wall mounted TVs.

They did... they’re called sound bars, and they’re awful... but apparently most people prefer them to 400lbs of speakers. I can’t say I understand how sound bars are tolerable to anyone, but that does seem to be where the industry is going :/

 

[Bartl007]

I never thought high SPL from those kind of surrounds was very important, but maybe I'm wrong? I would assume just about any well-measuring reasonably priced passive speaker there (e.g. SVS, or others) would suffice.

Anyway, I'm starting first with the idea that once I find good LR speakers and subs I really like, then I'll fill out the rest accordingly (matching center, not necessarily matching surrounds, as space permits).

Lots of options from JBL for surround use depending on your room, listening distances, dispersion requirements, etc. A few to check out that have been used in various iterations of jbl synthesis cedia demos in years past included:


Cbt 50la

SCS8

Control 328C (same guts as the SCS8 for in wall use)

Control 226 C


I'm looking into the Control HST as well but no history of synthesis demo use that I'm aware of.

Check out northern sound and light for the best pricing I've found

 

[Trouble Maker]

They did... they’re called sound bars, and they’re awful... but apparently most people prefer them to 400lbs of speakers. I can’t say I understand how sound bars are tolerable to anyone, but that does seem to be where the industry is going :/

Eh, not all of them, but the little $70 ones are worth about as much as you pay for them. We did a full 5.1 sound bar system from Vizio, wireless transmits sub and rear the the sub, it has amps for the rears and you run wires from it to discrete rears. It is great given the form factor, orders of magnitude better than the built in TV sound. For casual TV watching and the rare movie it is more than adequate.

Then I wanted good stereo again, so I got that. So 2 different systems for 2 different purposes. But I am hankering for a full blow 5.x.x system to be at a different level again compared to the soundbar setup.

A real center speaker for a real surround setup, but that works with how people are using their spaces (TVs on walls) would fit a need that is there.

 

[spacevector]

OP, do you mind sharing roughly how much the rental runs for the JBL SRX835? Did you get a pair? I wonder if Amir has an appetite for measuring these kinds of speakers - too heavy I imagine. I would chip in for a couple days' rental.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

There will always be a separation between enthusiasts and basic users. A Soundbar and a flat-screen is all, most people need, Those on ASR that are interested in HT, we'll, henceforth, refer to them as "enthusiasts". For them, a center channel is necessary,. screen at least 100 diagonal, L,R and surround speakers .. If it is a living room, then begrudgingly a flat-screen but still discrete speakers LCR SR, SL, Sub. Flat screens can be superior to PJ in many (objective) aspects but for sheer cinematographic impact? Front PJ in a darkened room...with a screen that is more than 100" wide and seating at 3 meter from said screen...

This noted, it is dawning on me that HT could well be the best way to experience great movies. Even at the video level. There are where i live many issues more serious than HT but no movies theaters... thus my HT has become more important than ever ...I am a movie lover.
I am impatiently waiting for those PA speakers measurements. The JBL SRX 835 is on my need-to-audition list.. if and when I travel.

I need to go below 20 H.. thus good subwoofers of the type made by Rythmik, SVS and others will be used. I am not alone.

Peace

 

[echopraxia]

I am impatiently waiting for those PA speakers measurements.

Look above; someone found some fairly detailed measurements.

Those on ASR that are interested in HT, we'll, henceforth, refer to them as "enthusiasts". For them, a center channel is necessary,. screen at least 100 diagonal, L,R and surround speakers ..

Even for this there is a spectrum. Personally, I find that a great 4-channel setup of L/R speakers, rear surrounds (plus subs) is mostly all I want. Everything after that is a bonus. As others have mentioned here, center channel is difficult due to many of us having nice TV's rather than projectors.

For example, like others here I also have LG's 77" OLED TV, which costs ~$5k. To match the visual quality of this TV with a projector (true 4K, HDR contrast ratios with high brightness), you'll need to spend >$30k.

It's a balance/tradeoff. I'm hoping eventually 4K HDR (true OLED-like HDR, true 4K -- no with minimal specs to barely permit the badges) projectors will eventually come down in price, but for now I find it's a better trade-off to have a phantom center with two really powerful speakers (like SRX835P) with a nice OLED TV, than to have a matching center with an inferior projector.

I will eventually add a matching center whenever those projectors and acoustically transparent projector screens go down in price etc., but that may be a while.

OP, do you mind sharing roughly how much the rental runs for the JBL SRX835? Did you get a pair? I wonder if Amir has an appetite for measuring these kinds of speakers - too heavy I imagine. I would chip in for a couple days' rental.

It was 10% the price of the speakers for one day.

 

[FrantzM]

I am in the group who starts thinking" HT". at the 100 diagonal, seating at 3 meter . Willing t sacrifice the last iota in contrast for the impact and immersion of a large picture.. This is to me similar to the impact of well-reproduced mid-bass 100~250 Hz and low bass ... <100 Hz.
I must say that I have one of the LSR 308 on its side for center... I am so far pleased. I don't like phantom center channel

 

[echopraxia]

I am in the group who starts thinking" HT". at the 100 diagonal, seating at 3 meter . Willing t sacrifice the last iota in contrast for the impact and immersion of a large picture.. This is to me similar to the impact of well-reproduced mid-bass 100~250 Hz and low bass ... <100 Hz.
I must say that I have one of the LSR 308 on its side for center... I am so far pleased. I don't like phantom center channel

If you say this not having seen high quality, modern HDR content on an OLED TV in a dark room, then you might change your mind once you experience it

Remember, HDR isn’t just ability to deliver extreme contrast (e.g. at low brightness) — it’s also the ability to deliver a wide range of brightness in a single scene, with content specifically mastered to permit much higher peak brightness. This enables the ability to reproduce small but high intensity peaks accurately, without compressing them. Hmm... does this sound familiar? It should: HDR displays are directly analogous to "HDR" speakers capable of reference level SPL — both enable accurately reproducing a very high dynamic range experience, when playing content specifically mastered to reference levels.

For audio, that means explosions and other impactful events can be played without clipping/compressing. For video, this means small specular highlights (e.g. snow, sand, water, any and all glass, etc. etc.) or lighting effects in general (including explosions of course, but so much more than that) are rendered without being clipped (saturated). In contrast, SDR content pretty much always clips bright lights and highlight, because the peak brightness SDR content is mastered to is so low compared to HDR.

If you have experienced a good OLED HDR dark room experience and still prefer low contrast projectors (and pretty much everything under $30k is low contrast compared to OLED) to achieve a bigger screen, then I suppose that’s just personal preference (though I don’t understand it).

 

[cistercian]

If you say this not having seen high quality, modern HDR content on an OLED TV in a dark room, then you might change your mind once you experience it

Remember, HDR isn’t just ability to deliver extreme contrast (e.g. at low brightness) — it’s also the ability to deliver a wide range of brightness in a single scene, with content specifically mastered to permit much higher peak brightness. This enables the ability to reproduce small but high intensity peaks accurately, without compressing them. Hmm... does this sound familiar? It should: HDR displays are directly analogous to "HDR" speakers capable of reference level SPL — both enable accurately reproducing a very high dynamic range experience, when playing content specifically mastered to reference levels.

For audio, that means explosions and other impactful events can be played without clipping/compressing. For video, this means small specular highlights (e.g. snow, sand, water, any and all glass, etc. etc.) or lighting effects in general (including explosions of course, but so much more than that) are rendered without being clipped (saturated). In contrast, SDR content pretty much always clips bright lights and highlight, because the peak brightness SDR content is mastered to is so low compared to HDR.

If you have experienced a good OLED HDR dark room experience and still prefer low contrast projectors (and pretty much everything under $30k is low contrast compared to OLED) to achieve a bigger screen, then I suppose that’s just personal preference (though I don’t understand it).

OLED displays are epic. We consume media in my house via tablets mostly and the good OLED displays are fantastic.
For movie night we have a separate small house that serves decently...and a rather small LCD TV. So...no home theater here!
Both of my girls are on stage a lot in local plays which is our actual theater fix. We have some nice venues here.
We used to got to the movies pretty often but it got old for all of us. Too loud, too cold, etc.

 

[Trouble Maker]

I am in the group who starts thinking" HT". at the 100 diagonal, seating at 3 meter

That's great for those that can have a separate spaces for HT and regular TV viewing, then maybe another one for music. I would guess I'm in the plurality or maybe majority, even here, of those that have a shared space that's living room, TV watching, Movie watching, music listening, etc.

 

[FrantzM]

Ill try to get an OLED. The thing about video is that prices keep on falling, and fast. Hopefully Front PJ prices with close to OLED performances will fall to a more palatable level. $30k is a dealbreaker.