Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[sssn]

@amirm

I am using a Denon AVR-X1600H as my current AVR and do exactly what this thread is about: feed it a HDMI signal from my PC and listen to two floorstanding speakers (Dali Spektor 6). What I gathered is that I use the following menu and configure the output as stereo to get best performance, correct?

 

[Dj7675]

I'm quite late to this 'party', would you mind telling us what was the happy ending? Did Denon go out of the AVR business? Or slashed prices by 50%?


There, fixed that for you.
Ok, ok I am kidding. The (only!) two amps that were tested are actually ~$50 good.



I really, really, really want to see that answer too!

The "new" measurements show that the x4700 AVR gives us the same approx 70dB SINAD. Last time I checked that was (still) the main usecase for like 99,99% of customers. And by 2020 standards, I am quite sure that the name for that 'performance' is (still) 'trash'.

Wow, can’t agree with this at all. If you judge it at 2V I suppose I can see your point. However, used without external amps as most do, it is very good. Used with external exams that require less than 1.4v, it is also very good. Use it in preamp mode with your own amps... also very good. If you use an external amp, you are limited to ones under 1.4, but fortunately there are a lot of good choices out there. And, the internal amps in the Denon’s are relatively good as well. One of most important benefits of Amir’s reviews are what knowing how you can get the best performance out of these AVR’s and Processors.

 

[lashto]

Wow, can’t agree with this at all. If you judge it at 2V I suppose I can see your point. However, used without external amps as most do, it is very good. Used with external exams that require less than 1.4v, it is also very good. Use it in preamp mode with your own amps... also very good. If you use an external amp, you are limited to ones under 1.4, but fortunately there are a lot of good choices out there. And, the internal amps in the Denon’s are relatively good as well. One of most important benefits of Amir’s reviews are what knowing how you can get the best performance out of these AVR’s and Processors.

I wish this forum had a thumb-down feature. Judging by the 'party' mood around here, I would be very disappointed if my post did not get 50 thumbdowns
Joking aside, all I can see is an AVR. Sold as AVR. Bought as AVR. Used as AVR by most people. Measures at ~70dB SINAD as AVR. Why was it recommended?

P.S.
I do appreciate the benefits of Amir's reviews. Also appreciate his heroic efforts to talk some sense into manufacturers. Also appreciate that Denon had a somewhat normal response and did not start 'yelling' like Emotiva & such. But my post was not about those things. And I'd like to keep talking numbers & performance, not politics or 'feelings'.

 

[Dj7675]

I wish this forum had a thumb-down feature. Judging by the 'party' mood around here, I would be very disappointed if my post did not get 50 thumbdowns

Joking aside, all I can see is an AVR. Sold as AVR. Bought as AVR. Used as AVR by most people. Measures at ~70dB SINAD as AVR. Why was it recommended?
That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

P.S.
I do appreciate the benefits of Amir's reviews. Also appreciate his heroic efforts to talk some sense into manufacturers: Also appreciate that Denon had a somewhat normal response and did not start 'yelling' like Emotiva & such. But my post was not about those things. And I'd like to keep talking numbers & performance, not politics or 'feelings'.

Because when used as designed (master volume not exceeding reference level of 0) DAC measurements show it to be a SINAD of 96 not 70.
Edit: The 2V is if trying to drive an amp that would require 2V via the preamp output.

 

[rccarguy]

Not necessarily. I paid £699/$862 for an IOTAVX 7.1 4K AVP (pic below). It is light on features - which I wanted, but it has all the basics - including center channel sound, basic room correction DSP, and XLR output. It works perfectly for me, which is good, because it cost a lot to ship it here to the mountains of Western Panama from the UK via Miami, USA, and would not be easy to get service or resell it. It wasn't festooned with "HiRes Audio" and other stickers when I got it, which is also good, because I like the "as simple as possible, but no simpler" approach. I get up-mixed center channel sound that I can defeat when it affects really good stereo recordings by simply turning off my center channel amplifier with its front switch. I always seem to be a bit off the mainstream audio consumer track, but yet again in a long lifetime in the audio hobby, managed to assemble a system that suits me perfectly considering my room, budget and fairly wide-ranging taste in music. I think this is as close to a competent design with a minimalist approach that one can find in the AVP arena.

The Denon looks good, but would be waaaay overkill for me. However, based on this ASR review and thread, I would not hesitate to recommend it highly for non-audiophile/videophile friends looking for a modern, good-performing "all-in-one" AVR and could afford it.

Unfortunately, for many retired expats like me living in a small rental house or apartment on an even more limited pension then mine, anything more than a Smart TV with an Amazon Firestick is out of reach. Most of my friends and acquaintances don't even have sound bars, much less discrete external speakers and subwoofers for their TV's. However, a couple of well-heeled expat retirees whom I know actually have full-on dedicated home theater rooms with videophile multichannel sound.

At this time in the midst of the global Covid-19 pandemic, it is a miracle that we have high-speed internet and high-res streaming video from around the world even in remote corners of developing nations like Panama. Video via the internet is our "window to the world". Life here in Boquete during the restrictions of a pandemic would be quite different without it.

View attachment 71732

Could you ship that to be tested.to.amir. emailed iota about XLR spec and no answer

 

[Nathan Raymond]

@amirm

I am using a Denon AVR-X1600H as my current AVR and do exactly what this thread is about: feed it a HDMI signal from my PC and listen to two floorstanding speakers (Dali Spektor 6). What I gathered is that I use the following menu and configure the output as stereo to get best performance, correct?

View attachment 71740

If the AVR-1600H has the same issue the AVR-X4700 has, then your setup might not be ideal, based on what @amirn said:

"Fortunately the fix was simple. I simply turned on all the speakers for 7.1 configuration while still continuing to feed the AVR the same way I was before. With all channels configured, the stereo audio data was no longer changed since no mapping was required and performance shot way up. Since vast majority of you are using AVRs with multiple channels enabled anyway, the issue that caused the problem should not be something you see."

He had to change the speaker configuration in the AVR to say he had 7.1 speakers (even though he didn't) while feeding it the same 2.0 audio from the computer over HDMI, to prevent the AVR from putting the 2.0 signal over HDMI through the audio mapping part of the AVR (even though a 2.0 -> 2.0 audio map should have been lossless). Hopefully the AVR-1600H doesn't suffer from this bug, since changing the speaker config this way is only practical if all your sources are truly 2.0 (otherwise if you feed the receiver something greater than 2.0 and the receiver thinks you have speakers hooked up that you don't, it will send audio to nowhere and you could be missing out on important audio from movies/TV/etc. and things wouldn't sound right).

This raises an interested question though which I'm not sure was answered in the original review (or any review on this site) - is multichannel audio fed into a receiver drastically reduced in quality when the speaker configuration on the receiver has fewer speakers than the source? i.e. if I feed a 7.1 signal into a receiver configured with 5.1 (or 3.1 or 2.0) speakers, is the quality reduced compared to the receiver having 7.1 speakers? The implication I get from this review right now is that it could very well be reduced. (This is a complex question that I'm guessing could vary a lot from receiver to receiver as well as what choices users make with settings on their receivers since there are many ways to map a high channel incoming signal to fewer output channels, from proprietary DSP solutions like Yamaha has to brand-specific "all channel stereo" options such as Harman Kardon's Logic 7 stereo to 5.1/7.1 sound field mapping, as well as other solutions included as part of Dolby Atmos and DTS:X "upmixers", all of which could take different paths through a receiver.)

 

[lashto]

Because when used as designed (master volume not exceeding reference level of 0) DAC measurements show it to be a SINAD of 96 not 70.
Edit: The 2V is if trying to drive an amp that would require 2V via the preamp output.

Hmm, maybe I missed something. Let's check the 96 SINAD conditions again:

• amps disabled (for the tested channels)
• only preamp outputs tested
• only 2 out of 13 preamp outputs active
• DSP/Audissey disabled
• (presumably) Everything but those 2 channels disabled: no zones, network, wifi, bluetooth, airplay, etc.

How's that "used as designed"?
This is an AVR with 9 amps, room-correction as main feature and 123 other features. Does the new Denon manual say "please never start the amps"?! Does the Denon marketing brochure say "please disable DSP and all other features"?!

When used as sold, as designed, as marketed, you get "less than 75dB" SINAD. I.e. 75dB measured from DAC/pre, plus additional amp distortion, plus DSP distortion, plus distortion/interference from 5+ other active channels, plus whatever interference/distortion from network/wireless/zones/etc. Somewhat optimistic, but let's pretend that you still get 70dB SINAD.

And yes, it's tested at 2V. Other AVRs were also tested at 2V and "decapitated"/trashed at 2V. I fully agree with that!

P.S. edit:
The x4700 measures best at 1.1V. Denon assumed that everyone will give them a 50% discount on the standard 2V. Wrong. But fine with me. I just want my 50% on price!
P.S.edit2.1
...looks like the reason why x4700 AVR did get more than "50% recommended" will never be clarified .. rest in peace .. together with the whole Denon 2020 line for all I care.

 

[Putter]

Momma told me never to heap, I tell my kids, never to tweet

It sounds like this AVR has a flaw when used in 2 channel-mode HDMI.
Since that is allowed configuration, it is an issue.

- Rich

I don't quite understand all the hoo-ha. AFAICT ALL BluRay's and DVD's have a Stereo mix and a Multichannel mix. So if you have an AVR that you use for stereo (Oh the horror!), then you select for stereo on recording and on the AVR. There may well be a glitch in the Denon software, but it strikes me as something that will rarely occur and likely will not even be audible.

 

[Gedeon]

With Eco mode engaged on my Denon X3300, massive clipping and distortion occurs much earlier than with Eco mod off. Far below the clean power output capability of the AVR in normal mode. So it doesn't just limit power, but it greatly reduces the level at which massive clipping and distortion occurs. As in 20 watts or so. Perhaps using it in Auto mode would be ok as I *think* eco mode turns off above a certain volume level in Auto. I would personally want to test to be sure though before I used it.

I totally understand that enabling ECO will make clipping arise wayt sooner in the speaker outputs.

I was just wondering if ECO mode would have any kind of "impact" in pre-outs when not using any speaker, just the pre-outs to external power-amps.

 

[Xulonn]

Could you ship that to be tested.to.amir. emailed iota about XLR spec and no answer

I live in Panama - two-stage shipping and US import duty make that impractical. When some who lives in the U.S. buys one, perhaps shipping to Amir for testing would be possible.

IOTAVX is a small operation in the U.K. with manufacturing in China. Ian, the owner, is not good about answering pre-sale inquiries via email. That is unfortunate, because he is probably losing some sales because of his non-responsiveness. Too bad. I think it is a great product. I use the XLR connections and they work perfectly. XLR is a common audio connector, especially in the pro-audio world. Except for the recent issue with working but incorrect XLR connection wiring with some Hypex amps, I have not seen a problem worth spending time on. The IOTAVX website and manual only mention "balanced XLR" and do not mention "differential" wiring. However, my understanding is that noise and hum rejection - the primary reason for using XLR rather than RCA - is equally good with true differential or impedance-balanced designs.

There is a review thread and another member thread about IOTAVX amplification here at ASR, and those threads would be a better place to continue the discussion of this non-Denon topic.

 

[peng]

I totally understand that enabling ECO will make clipping arise wayt sooner in the speaker outputs.

I was just wondering if ECO mode would have any kind of "impact" in pre-outs when not using any speaker, just the pre-outs to external power-amps.

May be you are still missing the point that even with no speakers connected the pre-outs are still connected to the internal power amps.

The internal power amps output voltage will clip without speakers connected. Yes, current will be zero with no load, but the internal amps will still amplify the pre-out signal voltage unless disconnected from the pre-out.

I hope this answers your question. If not, we can try again.

 

[peng]

Actually you get 96-98 SINAD up to 1.4V pre-out only if you pair them with external amplifiers. If you use the internal amps they are rated in the X3500 case at about 82-84 SINAD and a little more with X3600.

More like 95 dB at 1.2 V, but I would also assume it would be similar up to 1.4 V based on Amir's comment and collaborating information I gathered from his other reviews. The 82-84 dB you quoted we're measured at the power output. That's quite good if compared to the Outlaw monoblock that is in the ASR recommended list.

See post#193 for the exact numbers, and for clarity, we are talking about the 3500. So you cannot disconnect any internal amps anyway.

 

[RichB]

I don't quite understand all the hoo-ha. AFAICT ALL BluRay's and DVD's have a Stereo mix and a Multichannel mix. So if you have an AVR that you use for stereo (Oh the horror!), then you select for stereo on recording and on the AVR. There may well be a glitch in the Denon software, but it strikes me as something that will rarely occur and likely will not even be audible.

40 dB SINAD is certainly audible.
I think I am reading that the problem exists for a 4700H used in a 2-channel setup.

I don't know why that would be considered unusual, especially by the myriad of posters insisting that feature and power requirements are totally satisfied by an AVR.
They are the most economical and (usually) reliable choice.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

If you have enabled at least the number of channels your source generates, then you are good. Going down in channel count is what causes the problem.

5.1 systems are remain the most common multi-channel HT setup. Though there are 3.1'ish sound bars.
This post suggests that the multi-channel down-mix issues would occur for 7.1 content sent to a 4700H set for 5.1 channels?

Also, there has been an assumption that COAX and other digital connections do not have this problem.
If it is truly a down-mix issue, then would not these digital interfaces be similarly affected?

- Rich

 

[amirm]

I think these AVRs need a "native" mode where they just pass the input channels to output with no potential for channel mapping. Otherwise there may not be any good way to solve this problem. The AVR would always have to assume worst case situation of full signal on the unused channels and reduce headroom by that much before doing its mixing, resulting in rise in noise floor and reduction of dynamic range.

Native mode exists for video to indicate the same (pass through the same resolution coming in, as what is going out). It should exist for audio just as well.

 

[Gyroscopics]

i would give it the headless panther just based on the weakass clipping at 1.4V. what normal people using this would think their cdplayer outputs more than a preamp? even some experienced audiophiles dont understand gain and just toss any amp on the outputs.

Any suggestions which AVR brand pushes unclipped 2.0V on the RCA pre-outs?

I use Parasound external amps with my Denon X4400H. All Parasound Amps have 2V RCA input sensitivity (by standards), and if the latest Denon 4700 barely makes it to 1.4V unclipped, it's a dud. When I bought the 4400, I did a lot of research and narrowed it down to Denon (the higher models at least) to meet my pre-out output voltage level criteria.

I hope that Amir publish the AVR's maximum unclipped pre-out voltage levels on his AVR reviews, considering that some readers here are not plain joe plug-n-play AVR users. I don't even care using my NC500MP monoblocks with AVRs as these amps require higher input voltage (2.35V rms, 3.32V peak). Using Rolls ProMatch MB15B solves that problem and I use a couple of them in my other 2ch rigs. If only AVR manufacturers follow standards.

 

[Nick72]

Last call for measurements before I pack this unit.

If not already packed up, and not too much trouble,

It might be useful as a reference, to post a graph displaying how bad, or not, the downmixing issue is when a 7.1 HDMI source is outputted to a 5.1 speaker setup.

This would likely be the most common scenario users will have and would be useful for many, including myself.

Thanks

 

[RichB]

If not already packed up, and not too much trouble,

It might be useful as a reference, to post a graph displaying how bad, or not, the downmixing issue is when a 7.1 HDMI source is outputted to a 5.1 speaker setup.

This would likely be the most common scenario users will have and would be useful for many, including myself.

Thanks

I'd like to see another digital interface multi-tone to see if it is HDMI specific.
Also multi-tone test via HDMI with the PC configured for 7.1 and the 4700H configured to 5.1, as this represents the most common use case.

I am also considering ordering a 3700 H on a 5.1 system and if the down-mix bug affects this configuration, it is a no-go.

- Rich

 

[amirm]

5.1 systems are remain the most common multi-channel HT setup. Though there are 3.1'ish sound bars.
This post suggests that the multi-channel down-mix issues would occur for 7.1 content sent to a 4700H set for 5.1 channels?

Yes in many ways.

If the source really has 7.1 data (i.e. all the channels have real content), then you have to provide mapping with its ugly ramifications of dealing with true overflow, headroom management, etc. BTW, this is what Windows audio stack manages by default, handing many incoming channels of audio from many apps, sending them all to one device. Most of us avoid this pipeline for degradations it can create due to this yet in AVRs, we may be using them as default!

If the source is set to 7.1 but content is 5.1, then it will cost you 2 dB in SINAD based on my testing of the 4700. The penalty for 3.1 will be more. I actually have a 2.0 for our TV sound which would mean a 10 dB loss.

Note that if you send a compressed bitstream, the AVR is doing the decoding. With Dolby, it is layered coding and authoring determines the down mix. I am hoping this means that the AVR is not performing channel mapping.

 

[amirm]

It might be useful as a reference, to post a graph displaying how bad, or not, the downmixing issue is when a 7.1 HDMI source is outputted to a 5.1 speaker setup.

I measured this and as I just indicated, it costs 2 dB in SINAD. So not end of the world but some loss.