OP
- Thread Starter
- #141
I can but would have to run through the calibration and such which I have not done.
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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)
- Thread starter amirm
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- Jan 7, 2020
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Last call for measurements before I pack this unit.
Not exactly a measurement request, but I would be curious how you find this AVR running your personal HT system?
By the way -every time I come to ASR, it just gets more awesome!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #143
The only AVR I use is for our main living room TV. There, it lives inside a cabinet so cannot generate heat. As such, I could not use this Denon AVR. What is there is a Pioneer AVR.
ta240
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Andreas007
Active Member
Don’t want to criticize your comment but to show and remember all of us how high the bar is set by this forum. Maybe too high?
“Clear in all aspects” is a very difficult goal to achieve by any company or product. Even companies like RME have issues with their products, however, they established a way to continuously improve and fix their products.
What I want to say: Don’t be always too harsh on companies, especially those who are showing good will. We all do mistakes or sometimes go for wrong direction.
And, an AVR is not an airbag.
Maybe you could test the RCA pre outs with ECO mode enabled in those models (like 6014, if I'm not wrong) which don't allow internal amplifier to be fully disabled.
There could be a relationship between internal power amplifier heat/energy and the not-so-good output at 2v. Maybe ECO mode could help.
Running things via a PC HDMI source can be tricky. I've got experience with three nvidia cards that all exhibit the same weird noise.
- Run regular HDMI output with nothing connected to the PC - no noise
- Plug in a MiniDSP via USB to the PC - you get audible noise on my speakers. Like a grounding issue.
- Plug in a 3.5mm audio jack to the headphone output of your motherboard - you get audible noise on the speakers on the speakers. They're two completely separate cards - no idea why this happens.
- Happened on 3 separate models (GTX 1050ti, 1070 and 1660) and 2 separate PCs
- Run regular HDMI output with nothing connected to the PC - no noise
- Plug in a MiniDSP via USB to the PC - you get audible noise on my speakers. Like a grounding issue.
- Plug in a 3.5mm audio jack to the headphone output of your motherboard - you get audible noise on the speakers on the speakers. They're two completely separate cards - no idea why this happens.
- Happened on 3 separate models (GTX 1050ti, 1070 and 1660) and 2 separate PCs
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #148
I thought I tested the ECO mode and it didn't fix this issue. If it just lowers the voltage rail and switches when input level goes higher, then the problem will remain. But yes, I can test to be sure.
I think the opposite would happen. Because the ECO mode lowers the supply voltage for the power amps, they would clip at a lower output voltage and the preamps also would distort at a lower output voltage.
Edit: And in Auto mode it should not behave differently, because it automaticly switches to high supply voltage if needed, as amirm wrote above.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #150
Your general point is correct but I am very careful with my grounding and have different options for that (e.g. Audio Precision by default is floating even with RCA unbalanced inputs). And there is no evidence of source noise in any of these measurements. We carefully analyzed this.
I am also avoiding Nvidia since their audio drive does not work with ASIO interface. Fortunately my PC has dual GPUs/HDMI so I am using the Intel one for testing.
valerianf
Addicted to Fun and Learning
The pre-out clip at the same volume (86 dB) if the internal amp are all ON.
If there is an external amp for FL and FR with the internal amp OFF for a better SINAD, then FL and FR will clip before (79dB volume) the Center channel (86 dB volume).
Then the practical choice is between a lower SINAD (all internal amp ON) or a lower volume clipping (internal amp OFF) when in multi-channel mode.
Please let me know if I missed something as I understood that the internal amplifier is always ON for the Center channel.
It seems to me a common config to use the internal amp for the Center channel and an external stereo amp for large column speakers (FL and FR).
If there is an external amp for FL and FR with the internal amp OFF for a better SINAD, then FL and FR will clip before (79dB volume) the Center channel (86 dB volume).
Then the practical choice is between a lower SINAD (all internal amp ON) or a lower volume clipping (internal amp OFF) when in multi-channel mode.
Please let me know if I missed something as I understood that the internal amplifier is always ON for the Center channel.
It seems to me a common config to use the internal amp for the Center channel and an external stereo amp for large column speakers (FL and FR).
I also hope for a firmware update soon (solving this problem), because I will be using it in a stereo setup
Fingers crossed /Karsten
I need some help understanding what the implications of this are for me.
First of all: Is that 1.4V RMS or 1.4V peak? I'm guessing RMS but I just want to make sure.
Second: I want to use this with Hypex NC252MP based amplifiers (with balanced inputs) for LCR in a 5.0 setup. So I am not able to go into pre-amp mode, right? If I am reading the datasheet right the amp module requires a balanced input level of 1.66V RMS / 2.34V Peak to achieve it's maximum output.
Since the Denon does not have balanced outputs, how would this change the sensitivity? Would the requried voltage change? If the sensitivity is then still above 1.4V would that mean that I can just not get the maximum power out of my amp? So I could just listen at a lower level and be fine? Or would there be some problems even at lower listening levels?
Edit: Another question.. How could I go about measuring the voltage that I need to achieve my preferred listening levels? Can I just play like a 1kHz tone at 0dB, turn the volume up to my listening level and then measure the pre-amp output with my multimeter? If so, would I measure with a load (amplifier + speakers) connected or without?
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carlosmante
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The carpenter is right "measure two times cut once"
Congratulations for setting a standard on good cooperation and avoiding endless flame battles. As a Denon AVR owner this reassures me, but re-affirms my stance of listening to 2-channel music on a dedicated 2 channel chain.
May this phenomenon apply to other brand AVRs?
I've 2.1 configuration with 7.1 channel receiver. If for example, I'm watching 7.1 (or 5.1) channel coded concert via HDMI and leave all channels active in AVR configuration, that would mean I'm loosing the content other than stereo channels right?
So currently I've set my receiver to decode any multi channel format and combine them to stereo. Does this mean that I'm sacrificing an audio quality?
I'd echo everyone else who's said this: this really is sterling work and an excellent example of collaboration on both sides.
Also, with the greatest of respect, I've long thought the most conspicuous weakness with ASR tests is the lack of peer review. It's understandable of course, and that shouldn't be read as criticism of @amirm. Given this collaboration and dialogue it's reasonable to imply D&M reviews will be peer reviewed on their side, and differences discussed. That really will elevate the reliability of D&M review findings.
I wish other manufacturers would do the same and be as open. The Arcam response, if I recall, was the opposite (didn't they said something along the lines of "rookie errors"?).
I wonder, did they comment on the AV8805 review, which was tested with HDMI? It's difficult to see the argument for the 8805 in light of the Denon findings, unless the Denon's pre outs won't play nice with one's amp (mine's a NAD M27 - will have to check). The Denon has all the 8805's key features and more, plus would likely be just as reliable and bug-free.
Also, with the greatest of respect, I've long thought the most conspicuous weakness with ASR tests is the lack of peer review. It's understandable of course, and that shouldn't be read as criticism of @amirm. Given this collaboration and dialogue it's reasonable to imply D&M reviews will be peer reviewed on their side, and differences discussed. That really will elevate the reliability of D&M review findings.
I wish other manufacturers would do the same and be as open. The Arcam response, if I recall, was the opposite (didn't they said something along the lines of "rookie errors"?).
I wonder, did they comment on the AV8805 review, which was tested with HDMI? It's difficult to see the argument for the 8805 in light of the Denon findings, unless the Denon's pre outs won't play nice with one's amp (mine's a NAD M27 - will have to check). The Denon has all the 8805's key features and more, plus would likely be just as reliable and bug-free.
My understanding is Arcam did respond but did not take the time to diagnose the issue just said results met the 100dB THD+N spec using an HDMI signal generator. It does look to me like the AV40 review has the same issues as the initial X4700h review. To a lesser extent it looks like the AVR10 review was also affected.
Even if we consider all additional noise injected from various connection methods (HDMI, USB, Toslink), it is a job of the DAC to filter everything if it's properly implemented, am I wrong?
Why is it so difficult in this modern age to put proper DACs in AVRs?
Why is it so difficult in this modern age to put proper DACs in AVRs?
Most of this is general design ahead of the DAC (Grounding, Re-clocking, Jitter etc), the DAC itself isnt that involved.
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