Dutch & Dutch 8Cs

[Robert394]

What I'm really looking for is a qualitative step up in performance across each dimension of sound quality, similar to the improvement I heard going from Yamaha HS7 -> Adam A7X -> Hedd Type 20s. Each time was a leap in performance where the upgraded speaker was better in every respect.

Basically I'm looking to be "wowed" again I guess. I love the Type 20s but have had them for a year so I'm kind of used to them now.

I email Martijn to ask about the possibility of an audition where I am but we'll have to see.

I spoke with D&D's US rep and hopefully within the coming months I'll have a chance to listen to the 8cs and compare with my current setup.

I'd also like to add one correction to a comment of mine that wasn't fair to the Type 20s. For around 3 months now I've been feeling dissatisfied with the sound from my setup and could not figure out why despite trying a lot of different things like placement etc. The sound seemed compressed, a bit "off," and just not as enjoyable as I remembered it being. I thought maybe I was just getting used to my system and it wasn't impressing me anymore, or that adding a 55" LCD in between the speakers had messed up the sound stage.

Well it was neither of those things. What actually happened is I unintentionally installed an unreleased firmware version on my Dac based on a link a user posted in another forum. This was not the correct firmware for the device and it's no longer considered a release version. Yesterday, I updated the firmware to the most recent official version and now the system sounds much better and like I remembered. The volume is right, the soundstage isn't compressed any more, and I am quite pleased with how it's sounding. So it wasn't my speakers at all that caused the issue. Just wanted to mention that.

 

[Aaron Garrett]

JA Stereophile review addendum

 

[suttondesign]

How do you connect your Mac mini to the 8cs? I'm thinking of getting these and using them with BACCH

The ideal way is to use the RME ADI-2 Pro FS R because it has digital output and now a remote control!

 

[suttondesign]

Does anyone know if the 8Cs put out a full range signal with the subwoofer output right now?

The sub out has no filters and is full-range.

 

[jae]

Are all the 8C drivers custom?

 

[onion]

I understand the 8Cs should be placed close to the wall so that the bass from the rear woofers couples with the wall. Are there any limitations on placing objects to the side of the speaker? I'm thinking of having the speakers placed either side of a piano.

 

[Purité Audio]

D&D recommend 30cm from side walls, as close as 10cm from front wall, all parameters adjusted via their app.
All speakers ‘should’ be placed within 60 cm of the front wall to avoid cancellation.
Keith

 

[onion]

Cheers - Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

Are all the 8C drivers custom?

I think they are Wavecor, made to D&D’s spec.
Keith

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Never gets old.

Maybe ASR should change its name to "What's Even Better!"
'

 

[Robert394]

Hi

I think they are Wavecor, made to D&D’s spec.
Keith

Hey Keith, just out of curiosity, would you say the 8cs, or any speaker you've ever listened to manage to reproduce music in a way that is essentially indistinguishable from a live performance?

There's an interesting review of the Hedd Tower Mains where they guy says a piano track was playing and he thought someone was actually playing the piano in the room. Sometimes my Type 20s give me a similar impression on vocals.

That said, I'm wondering if there is a speaker technology that has advanced to the point where the sounds is essentially indistinguishable from a live performance if you say walked into the room blindfolded and were asked to decide the sound was coming from speakers or from a live performer.

 

[Purité Audio]

A loudspeaker can only hope to reproduce the file accurately, live instruments have a different dispersion to a pair of loudspeakers, then there is the microphone, placement etc etc.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

There's an interesting review of the Hedd Tower Mains where they guy says a piano track was playing and he thought someone was actually playing the piano in the room.

PMFJI my speakers sound just like a piano is in the room with a good recording.
They make a good stab at an orchestra too in terms of dynamic range and frequency bandwidth but not many recordings are good enough to fool me into thinking I have an orchestra at the end on my room...
Those that are most convincing in this way are mainly simply miked live recordings. Studio recordings have a lower noise floor sometimes have clearer detail but never get close to sounding real.
IMHO.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I suppose what I am saying is that the recording, as always, has a much bigger impact on sound quality than the equipment does, once you get to a certain level.

 

[Robert394]

What level are we talking? A quality $5-10k system in your opinion? Or more expensive?

 

[Frank Dernie]

What level are we talking? A quality $5-10k system in your opinion? Or more expensive?

It very much depends on how big your room is.
I have more than one pair of speakers which can do the dynamic range in my room but only one with full frequency range.
Both were much more expensive than that on their own but the room is big and I am sitting around 5m from the speakers.

 

[Inner Space]

There's an interesting review of the Hedd Tower Mains where they guy says a piano track was playing and he thought someone was actually playing the piano in the room. Sometimes my Type 20s give me a similar impression on vocals.

That said, I'm wondering if there is a speaker technology that has advanced to the point where the sounds is essentially indistinguishable from a live performance if you say walked into the room blindfolded and were asked to decide the sound was coming from speakers or from a live performer.

I think this is a very interesting issue. In my experience, people instinctively auto-calibrate to the category, so that when someone says he thought someone was actually playing the piano in the room, he really knows deep down there wasn't, and his praise is just that, i.e. he's saying, man, that's a good recording.

Surely the miniaturization and compression in any recording gives the game away. I once recorded a lounge jazz trio, soft, quiet, inoffensive, the kind of thing we've all heard many times. You could imagine domestic replay burbling along at less than a watt. But then the drummer tapped the snare, to kick the band into the next change. Not a rimshot, just a slightly emphatic nuance. We had new digital metering that showed replay would need about 3,000 watts to capture that instantaneous DR correctly.

So no, I don't think we'll ever be able to replay live acoustic events in a genuinely indistinguishable manner. The real thing simply has too much size and power and bandwidth.

 

[Robert394]

I think this is a very interesting issue. In my experience, people instinctively auto-calibrate to the category, so that when someone says he thought someone was actually playing the piano in the room, he really knows deep down there wasn't, and his praise is just that, i.e. he's saying, man, that's a good recording.

Surely the miniaturization and compression in any recording gives the game away. I once recorded a lounge jazz trio, soft, quiet, inoffensive, the kind of thing we've all heard many times. You could imagine domestic replay burbling along at less than a watt. But then the drummer tapped the snare, to kick the band into the next change. Not a rimshot, just a slightly emphatic nuance. We had new digital metering that showed replay would need about 3,000 watts to capture that instantaneous DR correctly.

So no, I don't think we'll ever be able to replay live acoustic events in a genuinely indistinguishable manner. The real thing simply has too much size and power and bandwidth.

Interesting. That may be true in this case but here is the actual quote:

. Also, the studio has a great-sounding Bechstein piano, which was played by various people during pauses in the proceedings. At one point I was in the studio’s foyer and heard a particularly well-executed performance through the open door, went to see who of our number was the pianist and found it was a recording played through the Towers; someone else present also independently noticed this.

https://www.audiomediainternational.com/2019/04/01/review-hedd-tower-mains/

Having never heard a system more expensive than my own (Type 20s + Sub with ADI2 Dac) I sometimes wonder what more you might get from a $12k, $20k, or $50k system.

 

[Inner Space]

3,000 watts at what listening distance and with what loudspeaker sensitivity? I have been able to achieve much higher levels of perceived realism in my system by sitting in the nearfield (i.e., two meters from my D&D 8Cs).

Sure, getting a yard or so closer will reduce power demand on both ends of the DR spectrum, but my point is the dynamics of live events are generally far too wide for accurate reproduction by any conceivable domestic system. As is live bandwidth toward the lowest frequencies. Hence (I think) the brain "forgives" and "translates" and willingly (or subconsciously) enters a suspension of disbelief.

 

[Inner Space]

Interesting. That may be true in this case but here is the actual quote:
https://www.audiomediainternational.com/2019/04/01/review-hedd-tower-mains/

Robert, I absolutely accept the anecdote (sweet, even if a bit "wife from the other room") but I don't doubt for a second that if samples of live and recorded had been sequenced as a test, they would have been instantly distinguished, even from the foyer.