Topping E30 DAC Review

[conuss]

I don't know what you're drinking but, whatever it is, I'd like to try a pint!

Just take a sip of warm water and a deep breath, then maybe you will understand how to place fragile items correctly on the shelf so that they do not fall.

 

[samsa]

For instance, your semi-clipped waveform may well be ideal for an ABX test because the ear is unaccustomed to the highly asymmetric waveform and when the asymmetry switches polarity in near-instant test conditions, it jars and the ear is capable of distinguishing the two states in a short time frame. If the test were reconfigured with, say, a five or ten second silent gap between trials, I wonder where the previously-claimed 100% success would go.

If human hearing really were a Fast Fourier Analyzer, as I had always been told, then absolute polarity would be completely inaudible. Full stop.

I have no idea what the rest of that paragraph is supposed to mean. Do you actually have a theory here, or are you just making stuff up as you go along?

Highly asymmetrical waveforms are ubiquitous. @hyperplanar mentioned the trombone. One could equally well consider drumbeats, the low A on a piano, ... For which of these the absolute polarity is audible is an interesting and AFAIK open question.

 

[Pluto]

If human hearing really were a Fast Fourier Analyzer, as I had always been told, then absolute polarity would be completely inaudible

It's far more likely to be an imperfect FF analysis, not entirely consistent between individuals. While we have fairly consistent baselines for measuring the performance of the auditory system, we don't know what (if any) consistency exists between individuals’ actual perception of sound. Most 'features' of human hearing exist because of a clearly defined evolutionary need for them. The ability to detect absolute phase with any degree of consistency or reliability isn't amongst them.

Show me a trombone that produces a waveform like that and I'll show you a microphone (or its amplifier) that is overloading.

 

[yejun]

If human hearing really were a Fast Fourier Analyzer

I think you mean spectrum analyzer.

 

[samsa]

It's far more likely to be an imperfect FF analysis...

No. If all you're measuring is |f̃(ω)|, then it doesn't matter whether you are calculating f̃(ω) correctly. The absolute phase is inaudible. Period.

To detect the absolute phase, you need a new ingredient, that is not Fourier analysis, like the fact that the cilia in the inner ear react asymmetrically to over/underpressure. That's the "half-wave rectifier" mentioned above.

If f(t) is an asymmetrical waveform, then the Fourier transforms of the rectified waveforms differ in magnitude, not just in phase.

Most 'features' of human hearing exist because of a clearly defined evolutionary need for them. The ability to detect absolute phase with any degree of consistency or reliability isn't amongst them.

Most features of human physiology are constrained by the biomechanics involved. Evolution doesn't magically lift the constraints that physics imposes.

Show me a trombone that produces a waveform like that and I'll show you a microphone (or its amplifier) that is overloading.

You sound like one of those subjectivists who complain that measurements made using test tones tell you nothing about how the item will perform with "real music."

 

[Pluto]

Evolution cannot defy physics, but if there is a need for something, nature has an uncanny knack of providing.

I am quite prepared to accept that there are occasional instances of absolute phase being detectable, but not on a consistent or reliably repeatable basis. While this test wave may bear some resemblance to what a trombone & its player might be capable of creating, I am confident that the abrupt clipping on one side of your magic waveform is not something that occurs in nature.

 

[odyo]

Would you mind taking the test I made in post #1237?

Thanks for the effort. I'll check it out. The thing is i'm not defending or claiming anything. Here for the information and discussion.

 

[yejun]

Evolution cannot defy physics, but if there is a need for something, nature has an uncanny knack of providing.

I am quite prepared to accept that there are occasional instances of absolute phase being detectable, but not on a consistent or reliably repeatable basis. While this test wave may bear some resemblance to what a trombone & its player might be capable of creating, I am confident that the abrupt clipping on one side of your magic waveform is not something that occurs in nature.

You can just put a hard object on one side of a string, when the string hit the object the waveform will be clipped only on one side.

 

[odyo]

Well, I think the people claiming "a more open soundstage" have fallen victim to placebo. Not sure how the other gear used could possibly affect that.

You don't need to switch between updates to compare the sound of correct and inverted polarity, you can simply just listen to the audio file I posted. If you're on the updated firmware, the first 4 bars is in correct polarity, and the second 4 bars is in inverted polarity. If you're on the old firmware, the first 4 bars is in inverted polarity, and the second 4 bars is in correct polarity. If you can hear any difference at all then it should be apparent, and anybody claiming to hear a difference can prove this by correctly identifying which is which in the next 10 repetitions. If not, then there's no need to worry about it.

There are lots of different hardware and different driver types out there. Some of them might respond bad to inverted polarity. There are also lots of different instruments and sound. I don't think your test file can give definitive answer.

 

[hyperplanar]

There are lots of different hardware and different driver types out there. Some of them might respond bad to inverted polarity. There are also lots of different instruments and sound. I don't think your test file can give definitive answer.

The hardware has no way of “knowing” what’s inverted or not. The only way for hardware (be it amps, speakers, headphones) to produce different colorations between original and inverted polarity samples is if it has gross asymmetrical nonlinearities, e.g., a tube amp that distorts the positive part of the waveform more than the negative part.

The question still remains, which rendition of the signal would sound better and more correct? It’s ambiguous.

 

[yejun]

The question still remains, which rendition of the signal would sound better and more correct? It’s ambiguous.

Sounds better is probably more subjective. But I don't feel ambiguous for more correct. Whichever is more close to if you sit at the microphone position.

 

[hyperplanar]

Sounds better is probably more subjective. But I don't feel ambiguous for more correct. Whichever is more close to if you sit at the microphone position.

I meant to say which sounds correct. Yes there is a technically correct polarity...

 

[samsa]

I think you mean spectrum analyzer.

Indeed: a spectrum analyzer computes the FFT, f̃(ω), and keeps only the magnitude |f̃(ω)|. That's what we were all told the ear does but — apparently — that's not quite true.

 

[ninetylol]

Is there anything like the E30 with xlr out coming from Topping? I dont feel like touching SMSL stuff after recent past mishaps.

 

[samsa]

Is there anything like the E30 with xlr out coming from Topping? I dont feel like touching SMSL stuff after recent past mishaps.

How about the Soncoz LA-QXD1?

 

[ninetylol]

How about the Soncoz LA-QXD1?

Yeah I actually would like to buy one but its hard to get here in germany. Also paying some hefty premium here.

 

[OldHardwareTech]

Hey may I check of the 6 available filters, which should I use? My setup is PC, Topping E30, JDS Atom and HD6XX.

Thank you!

I was curious and actually thinking of asking what filter everybody else prefers last night but decided it would have a hard time getting noticed with the polarity discussion that's been dominating the thread lately. Filter preference is something you're just going to have to try for yourself to determine what you like. I like #2 and #4 but my preference doesn't mean someone else will prefer the same, in fact someone with exactly the same gear may even hate it. There are a lot of variables that could change your preference-various types of equipment, listening room layout and furnishings along with your hearing can all have an impact. I'm on day 7 with my E30 so my preference may change too. Be sure to let me know which filter you decide upon.

 

[samsa]

Yeah I actually would like to buy one but its hard to get here in germany. Also paying some hefty premium here.

Audiophonics?

 

[lucadoc]

How about the Soncoz LA-QXD1?

Which one would be better as preamplifier with ncore power amp (NC250 from audiophonics for exemple) ? Or maybe another good dac with higher Volts output on xlr?

 

[half_dog]

Which one would be better as preamplifier with ncore power amp (NC250 from audiophonics for exemple) ? Or maybe another good dac with higher Volts output on xlr?

A DAC not so expensive is SMSL M500 with ~6.7Vrms of output.