Trouble with Dirac Live and lack of bass after correction

[Mnyb]

In a scenario when you try to fill the null it will also never work beyond it's capabilities. How much of that work would you hear because of the null is another thing.



SW helps pretty much always, even with large floorstanders. Regarding the headroom, with standard speaker sensitivity of app 87db and amp gain of 24-27dB you easilly have 5-7dB of hearoom to spare for room EQ. Most people practically never play that loud and as a result fo EQ sound quality will be greatly improved.

Yes i actually prefer subwoofer with floortanders , thats what use but in fact medium sized floorstanders dual 6,5" woofers .

I hear you about the headroom it's probably true, but i think it becommes true if you use a sub , these small 2 ways do not have much of any spl capacity near their low end even if they can play at ear bleeding levels from the midbass and above.

Btw if its an 2 way bassreflex or similar one should be aware of what happens below the port resonsnce frequency .
But here we all agree OP is advised to not boost low bass i would extend that to not boost below tuning frequncy of the bassrelefex system if that is known.

 

[QMuse]

Btw if its an 2 way bassreflex or similar one should be aware of what happens below the port resonsnce frequency .
But here we all agree OP is advised to not boost low bass i would extend that to not boost below tuning frequncy of the bassrelefex system if that is known.

It goes without saying that the part of target curve circled violet is hugely problematic as it will ask that speaker is pushed beyond it's natural roll-off. Target curve should instead follow red line which tracks the natural LF roll-off curve.

 

[Soniclife]

He suggested that EQ is pushing small woofer above it's ability to produce LF, but the fact is that EQ filters are not "pushing" nor boosting ANY frequency - they only attenuate the response at some frequences or leave it at 0dB.

The EQ does not boost the non-cut area, but the volume control does on playback, which then boosts the area that was not cut.

 

[Dimifoot]

I thought I was typing in Chinese, thankfully there are people that understand

 

[QMuse]

The EQ does not boost the non-cut area, but the volume control does on playback, which then boosts the area that was not cut.

Sure, but never beyond capabilty of the speaker (woofer) as for any frequency dB gain of the filter is always <=0. All drivers of the speaker are asked to work harder on all frequencies when you increase the volume, so where's the problem?

In a real case scenario you anyhow don't fill the dips with more than 5-6dB which is far less than dynamics of any kind of music you'll be listening, so why worry?

 

[Soniclife]

All drivers of the speaker are asked to work harder on all frequencies when you increase the volume, so where's the problem?

You are pushing a small driver, quite likely already struggling at low frequencies before EQ harder. It's exactly the same reason as we don't try to get small speakers flat to 20hz, even though it would be possible at very low volume settings.

 

[QMuse]

You are pushing a small driver, quite likely already struggling at low frequencies before EQ harder. It's exactly the same reason as we don't try to get small speakers flat to 20hz, even though it would be possible at very low volume settings.

That is actually a good example. Let's assume that you have bookshelfe speaker capable of producing 20Hz at the -20dB relative to it's max SPL curve. Say the curve is flat at 103dB and at 50Hz it starts to roll off to end up at 83dB at 20Hz. This is the max SPL response curve this speaker can make.

Let's assume this is all happening in an anechoic chamber so we don't have to deal with room modes. I now make a filter that will look like this:

So, this filter has an attenuation of 20dB. It will make our speaker perfectly flat in the 20Hz-20khz range but it won't be able to play any louder than 83dB even at full volume.

This will not bring ANY additional stress to that speaker as it was anyhow able to play 20Hz at 83dB with full volume. I have only lowered the range where it was able to play louder but there is no a single frequency at which I asked it to play louder than before.

Are we clear now?

 

[Soniclife]

That is actually a good example. Let's assume that you have bookshelfe speaker capable of producing 20Hz at the -20dB relative to it's max SPL curve. Say the curve is flat at 103dB and at 50Hz it starts to roll off to end up at 83dB at 20Hz. This is the max SPL response curve this speaker can make.

Let's assume this is all happening in an anechoic chamber so we don't have to deal with room modes. I now make a filter that will look like this:

View attachment 57440

So, this filter has an attenuation of 20dB. It will make our speaker perfectly flat in the 20Hz-20khz range but it won't be able to play any louder than 83dB even at full volume.

This will not bring ANY additional stress to that speaker as it was anyhow able to play 20Hz at 83dB with full volume. I have only lowered the range where it was able to play louder but there is no a single frequency at which I asked it to play louder than before.

Are we clear now?

Pushing a drive unit to it's xmax is the very definition of extra stress.

 

[QMuse]

And this is how it would look in REW:

Blue is max SPL curve at full volume before EQ and green is after. As a result, I lost 20dB of headroom but I got very linear speaker. And no stress, as in no point it is asked to work more, it is always asked to work less, except at 20Hz where it is asked to work equal as before EQ.

 

[QMuse]

And yes, when you will be listening at 83dB woofer would work at 100% capacity at 20Hz, but it is same as it would work with no EQ if you crank your amp to 100%.

But this is extreme example where attenaution was 20dB, in real workd it is 5-7dB, so not a big stress for getting a linear in-room response. As I said, speaker anyhow have to work within the dynamic range of your music, it is not that it is working at 85 dB of average level where you listen to your music.

 

[kokishin]

I thought I was typing in Chinese, thankfully there are people that understand

謝謝(我開玩笑)

 

[spacebar]

Here you go. Some REW charts of:

1. default/no dirac enabled
2. dirac live curve
3. custom curve with personal adjustments
4. left and right
5. all left, all right and last is every measurement

All measurements is an average of 3 but only from center position, since I didnt have enough time to do all points.

 

[QMuse]

Here you go. Some REW charts of:

1. default/no dirac enabled
2. dirac live curve
3. custom curve with personal adjustments
4. left and right
5. all left, all right and last is every measurement

All measurements is an average of 3 but only from center position, since I didnt have enough time to do all points.

View attachment 57460View attachment 57461View attachment 57462View attachment 57463View attachment 57464View attachment 57465View attachment 57466View attachment 57467View attachment 57468View attachment 57469View attachment 57470View attachment 57471

Try increasing the target curve mannually in the 170-500Hz region and see if it will improve.

 

[spacebar]

Try increasing the target curve mannually in the 170-500Hz region and see if it will improve.

Like 1-2db?
Edit: use my custom curve?

 

[QMuse]

Like 1-2db?

Like 5-6 dB.

 

[spacebar]

Like 5-6 dB.

Continue with my custom curve or another one?

 

[QMuse]

Continue with my custom curve or another one?

The one that resulted in "Average left & Right Dirac" responses, #3 and #4 you posted above.

 

[levimax]

Here you go. Some REW charts of:

1. default/no dirac enabled
2. dirac live curve
3. custom curve with personal adjustments
4. left and right
5. all left, all right and last is every measurement

All measurements is an average of 3 but only from center position, since I didnt have enough time to do all points.

View attachment 57460View attachment 57461View attachment 57462View attachment 57463View attachment 57464View attachment 57465View attachment 57466View attachment 57467View attachment 57468View attachment 57469View attachment 57470View attachment 57471

I think what Dirac is doing by it's self is pretty good actually. I would suggest you either take what Dirac suggests or if you want to fine tune further rather than trying to "force" Dirac with custom curves to just go ahead and load your REW measurements into Rephase and make you own custom manual EQ adjustments. There is a steep learning curve but you are so far into this now it would not be all that hard. In the mean time listen to the Dirac suggestions which would be a good reference point to compare your manual EQ adjustments to. Good luck and have fun.

 

[QMuse]

Continue with my custom curve or another one?

Try to set target curve as I showed you here with red line:

 

[spacebar]

I think what Dirac is doing by it's self is pretty good actually. I would suggest you either take what Dirac suggests or if you want to fine tune further rather than trying to "force" Dirac with custom curves to just go ahead and load your REW measurements into Rephase and make you own custom manual EQ adjustments. There is a steep learning curve but you are so far into this now it would not be all that hard. In the mean time listen to the Dirac suggestions which would be a good reference point to compare your manual EQ adjustments to. Good luck and have fun.

Thanks, I’ll have a look. Sounds like a easter holiday project for me Only been fiddling with REW and Dirac for a couple of days, but so far very fun.

Try to set target curve as I showed you here with red line:

Yes. I did this with the Dirac curve before measurement since it was mentioned earlier in this thread. Only from 28 to 40. But will do the rest. Thanks btw.