Klipsch R-41M Bookshelf Speaker Review

[tuga]

Muddies awhole frequency area? In which wave/soundfield characteristic would that translate, phase mismatch? If that is so allow me to have some reservations here..

Btw, wide band cabinet radiation definitely is a resonance so either it shows in FR or it doesn't..

How do you know from the spinorama plots that the cabinet is resonating? How do you know that whether the resonance is wide- or narrow-band?

 

[QMuse]

How do you know from the spinorama plots that the cabinet is resonating? How do you know that whether the resonance is wide- or narrow-band?

Huh, this has already been said many times.. Whenever you see a peak in FR you are looking at resonance. Width of the peak correlates to the resonance Q factor.

 

[napilopez]

All this being said...

I'd be really interested in seeing a blind test comparison of a cheap cabinet with good directivity that's been EQ'd to remove resonances vs a high-end cabinet with very similar measurements which has inherently few resonances. It seems nigh impossible that the measurements would be similar enough to make it a fair comparison though.

 

[napilopez]

Huh, this has already been said many times.. Whenever you see a peak in FR you are looking at resonance. Width of the peak correlates to the resonance Q factor.

A peak in both the on and off axis data, to be clear.

 

[QMuse]

All this being said...

I'd be really interested in seeing a blind test comparison of a cheap cabinet with good directivity that's been EQ'd to remove resonances vs a high-end cabinet with very similar measurements which has inherently few resonances. It seems nigh impossible that the measurements would be similar enough to make it a fair comparison though.

Maybe you can try something like this: take a good speaker and remove it's cabinet dumping. It will still be a good speaker but resonances would increase and then you can measure and compare.

 

[pma]

Even if that would be the case (and I must admit I'm having trouble imaging it), what would be the audible relevance of it? Music typicallly don't contain single tone signalss that last for one minute. Unless of course you're listening to whales singing..

Listening at high level of the programme with low DR, like most of the contemporary commercial music.

I may prepare a record of sine waves with frequencies between 50Hz - 1kHz showing that distortion, at higher SPL, varies with time. So does the sweep measured distortion, then. Measure 100 sweeps in series, immediately one behind another, and the distortion plots would show some differences.

 

[QMuse]

Listening at high level of the programme with low DR, like most of the contemporary commercial music.

I may prepare a record of sine waves with frequencies between 50Hz - 1kHz showing that distortion, at higher SPL, varies with time. So does the sweep measured distortion, then. Measure 100 sweeps in series, immediately one behind another, and the distortion plots would show some differences.

Sweep is not ideal for measuring distortion for the reason you mentioned - it takes some time for the soundfield to enter steady state and tone duration in sweep may be too short for that. For that reason you will get better results with steped sine RTA measurement. But here we are talking about few seconds interval, not 1 minute. I cannot imagine soundfield would continue to change after 5 sec or so - you certainly don't need 1 minute to stabilise it.

But then again, THD is found not to be a real issue with modern speakers.

 

[tuga]

Huh, this has already been said many times.. Whenever you see a peak in FR you are looking at resonance. Width of the peak correlates to the resonance Q factor.

I wish it were that easy.

 

[tuga]

References please. And by "references" I mean "rigorously conducted double-blind tests that demonstrate your point", not random magazines like Stereophile. Remember that when we quote Toole's book or AES studies, we're quoting peer-reviewed, scientifically sound research. You're unlikely to sway us with your arguments if you don't back them with a similar level of evidence.

Am I correct in saying that Toole's reasearch focuses (mostly) on frequency response?
If so, does any of his research invalidate or challenge my arguments?
Was the methodology in Toole's research adequate for determining the audibility of resonances?

Did you see this post?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...helf-speaker-review.11566/page-17#post-334729


I understand that Toole has produced significant research work in this field but so have others and I find that many here are perhaps narrowing their minds a bit, particularly those originating from the western side of the pond, perhaps through lack of exposure to other researchers or under the weight of Toole's greatness.

 

[tuga]

THD is found not to be a real issue with modern speakers.

References please. (other than Toole/Olive)

 

[QMuse]

References please. (other than Toole/Olive)

Start with this one, read carefully and try to understand. Once you got that right I'll send more..

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/The Perception of Distortion.pdf

 

[QMuse]

References please. (other than Toole/Olive)

One more thing.. You seem to miss some basic things about acoustics yet you are defying work of Toole and Olive. This is the most arogant post I have seen so far on this fourm.

 

[tuga]

One more thing.. You seem to miss some basic things about acoustics yet you are defying work of Toole and Olive. This is the most arogant post I have seen so far on this fourm.

Arrogant has two "r"s.

 

[pierre]

Start with this one, read carefully and try to understand. Once you got that right I'll send more..

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/The Perception of Distortion.pdf

very interesting and easy to read. Thanks.

 

[maty]

...Usher Dancer Mini-X Diamond (thick - 50mm baffle, 25mm walls - cabinet construction)

The solution is not just to use thick walls (with only one material) -> only add mass. Reasonable thickness with viscoelastic material or equivalent is better.

 

[edechamps]

Am I correct in saying that Toole's reasearch focuses (mostly) on frequency response? If so, does any of his research invalidate or challenge my arguments?

@Floyd Toole's research is about loudspeaker preference in general. The reason why he chose to focus on frequency response is because other metrics have not be found to be a significant factor in loudspeaker preference in listening tests, as studies linked multiple times here have shown. We have very strong evidence that frequency response dominates loudspeaker preference, and weak (at best) evidence that anything else does.

Was the methodology in Toole's research adequate for determining the audibility of resonances?

Oh come on, the guy literally wrote the most cited paper on this very subject. Which did look at time domain (ringing) behaviour, by the way.

 

[pma]

Any factory research is biased to support factory benefits.

 

[tuga]

@Floyd Toole's research is about loudspeaker preference in general. The reason why he chose to focus on frequency response is because other metrics have not be found to be a significant factor in loudspeaker preference in listening tests, as studies linked multiple times here have shown. We have very strong evidence frequency response dominates loudspeaker preference, and weak (at best) evidence that anything else does.

If I'm not mistaken that particular reference is mostly about frequency response and I completely agree that frequency response dominates. Should we ignore other factors?
Preference is taste; it doesn't have a direct relationship with acuracy.
Preference is useful for a manufacturer for marketing reasons. The average consumer probably only cares about how low and how low, perhaps tonal balance. Audiophiles are or should be a bit more demanding, and expect more than just flat frequency response.

Oh come on, the guy literally wrote the most cited paper on this very subject. Which did look at time domain (ringing) behaviour, by the way.

I have it here somewhere. It's been years since I've read it though.

 

[Hiten]

Resonances :
Would be interesting to see measurements of thin walled speakers (Few low price speakers are already tested) by clamping them with heavy planks/makeshift CLD of suitable materials. Isn't it ?

 

[edechamps]

Any factory research is biased to support factory benefits.

The research on audibility of resonances I linked to was conducted when @Floyd Toole was at the Canada National Research Council, not Harman.