Should we (I) get into speaker testing & measurement

[Blumlein 88]

Well I suppose it could be enlightening for some. If these tests could prove without a doubt that active speakers will drastically reduce your system cost, drastically improve performance, allow much finer tuning to your room acoustics, and greatly simplify your system. Then any self proclaimed objectivist that doesn't jump on board the active train will be screaming loud and clear that they're a chump. And for me that would make this all worth while.

Not necessarily. There is always the force of circumstance even in audio.

Suppose I have a top notch passive system. Lets just say it cost $10k total. These terrific new active systems come out and have 10% better performance and cost $8k (generally new and better stuff isn't going to be very cheap at first). Am I a chump if I immediately sell my now not so valuable passive setup for $4k and then spend $8k bringing my total expense to $14k for 10% better performance? According to you I am a chump if I don't.

Now maybe a couple years later we get that same active setup for $4k, and somehow thru nostalgia or whatever my old gear is also worth $4k. If my overwhelming consideration is only sound, then sure I should make the change.

One of the clearest cases you'll ever have of a new all of a sudden better product vs legacy products is LED vs incandescent lighting. Even there with initial very high buy in costs it didn't make everyone not buying into LEDs a chump. Other circumstances matter.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Well there is a secret that can prevent this fate from occurring. Awareness of its existence. Awareness that the human mind has weaknesses. Only with awareness can you prevent this from happening.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Unfortunately not a happy one. Awareness can't prevent it from happening. It might ameliorate it. It isn't sufficient to prevent it from happening. We can help each other more than we can help ourselves from what I've seen. Even that doesn't prevent those days adding up.

 

[Audiocrusader]

Not necessarily. There is always the force of circumstance even in audio.

Suppose I have a top notch passive system. Lets just say it cost $10k total. These terrific new active systems come out and have 10% better performance and cost $8k (generally new and better stuff isn't going to be very cheap at first). Am I a chump if I immediately sell my now not so valuable passive setup for $4k and then spend $8k bringing my total expense to $14k for 10% better performance? According to you I am a chump if I don't.

Now maybe a couple years later we get that same active setup for $4k, and somehow thru nostalgia or whatever my old gear is also worth $4k. If my overwhelming consideration is only sound, then sure I should make the change.

One of the clearest cases you'll ever have of a new all of a sudden better product vs legacy products is LED vs incandescent lighting. Even there with initial very high buy in costs it didn't make everyone not buying into LEDs a chump. Other circumstances matter.

It's not going to be a 10% improvement. The objective performance of proper active speakers is in another world better, for much lower cost. Let alone the WAF. And I'm not saying that you should sell off your passive setup that you enjoy. Just be openly aware that you can now get much better for less. Passive vs active arguments will no longer exist on ASR. It will be either you run well designed actives from the recommended list, or your system is 2nd rate period.

 

[Audiocrusader]

I'll let you in on a little secret. Unfortunately not a happy one. Awareness can't prevent it from happening. It might ameliorate it. It isn't sufficient to prevent it from happening. We can help each other more than we can help ourselves from what I've seen. Even that doesn't prevent those days adding up.

Well we are in the information age now. Innovations move faster and faster by the day. So anyone who continues to embrace past ideals, and refuses to move forward at the pace of innovation, is going to have a very rough time. Especially if they run a business.

 

[Blumlein 88]

It's not going to be a 10% improvement. The objective performance of proper active speakers is in another world better, for much lower cost. Let alone the WAF. And I'm not saying that you should sell off your passive setup that you enjoy. Just be openly aware that you can now get much better for less. Passive vs active arguments will no longer exist on ASR. It will be either you run well designed actives from the recommended list, or your system is 2nd rate period.

I may need to find it. I think it was even from Harman's staff. They compared distortion, efficiency and everything of the Revel vs actives and found the difference was very small. I remember it surprised me how little the benefit was. You are a true believer. I believe too though I'll be happy to see how much better things are via measured results just to let me know the magnitude of it all.

 

[RayDunzl]

Well we are in the information age now. Innovations move faster and faster by the day. So anyone who continues to embrace past ideals, and refuses to move forward at the pace of innovation, is going to have a very rough time.

And so will you, if you try to "keep up" with every new idea that occurs to someone with a twitter account.

 

[Audiocrusader]

I may need to find it. I think it was even from Harman's staff. They compared distortion, efficiency and everything of the Revel vs actives and found the difference was very small. I remember it surprised me how little the benefit was. You are a true believer. I believe too though I'll be happy to see how much better things are via measured results just to let me know the magnitude of it all.

So they made identical versions of each speaker. Passive and active? You know Harman isn't fools when it comes to marketing. They're well aware that most baby boomers will never buy actives. So if they go and tell everyone their passives suck compared to their actives then they would lose a massive amount of sales. This is why Dynaudio still has their passive line even though they clearly tell everyone their $15000 active is the best product they make. They know internally that actives are far superior. If it was up to them they would ditch every passive speaker in their lineup.

 

[Wombat]

You are either trolling, or you actually don’t realize how unscientific your stance here is:

You are claiming here that the results of scientific measurements will only be valid and useful if the outcome matches your expectations.

Thats not how science works. At least, not counting corrupt perversions of it.

We fit our models to the empirical evidence, not vice versa.

Just another cherry-picking pseudointellectual with little to back up his seemingly inexhaustible array of postulations. The posts are full of 'if', but, 'why', 'suppose', 'wouldn'ts', scapegoating, lots of begging the question, assumptions, etc. and it is grindingly tedious whilst adding little practical contribution to the OP.

Forum members have been very tolerant.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just another cherry-picking pseudointellectual with little to back up his seemingly inexhaustible array of postulations. The posts are full of 'if', 'why', 'suppose', 'wouldn'ts', scapegoating, lots of begging the question, assumptions, etc. and it is grindingly tedious whilst adding little practical contribution to the OP.

Forum members have been very tolerant.

They strike me as being out of touch with reality. Theorists need experimentalists. And both need to interact with the real world.

 

[Audiocrusader]

And so will you, if you try to "keep up" with every new idea that occurs to someone with a twitter account.

For the average person, the human brain is only being used at around 2-3% capacity. So don't underestimate what's possible with an open mind.

 

[Audiocrusader]

Just another cherry-picking pseudointellectual with little to back up his seemingly inexhaustible array of postulations. The posts are full of 'if', 'why', 'suppose', 'wouldn'ts', scapegoating, lots of begging the question, assumptions, etc. and it is grindingly tedious whilst adding little practical contribution to the OP.

Forum members have been very tolerant.

So now we're going from a conversion on technical merits of speakers, to an outright personal attack? Is that encouraged in the forum rule book?

 

[RayDunzl]

So now we're going from a conversion on technical merits of speakers, to an outright personal attack?

Your technical comments so far have included active speakers "wiping the floor" and being "in another world".

Do you have some specific reference for that?

 

[Audiocrusader]

Anyways thanks for the conversation guys. I have now learned that Amir should get this gear. And I truly believe it will be highly inspirational to the members to see this data. Even if the passive speaker crowd doesn't like the results.

 

[Audiocrusader]

Your technical comments so far have included active speakers "wiping the floor" and being "in another world".

Do you have some specific reference for that?

Let's just wait for Amir to prove it. That will carry more weight. I think all members should donate at least $100 towards the gear. Especially those with post counts over 1000. I vote for 10 cents for every post. Donated to Amir for this gear.

 

[Wombat]

So they made identical versions of each speaker. Passive and active? You know Harman isn't fools when it comes to marketing. They're well aware that most baby boomers will never buy actives. So if they go and tell everyone their passives suck compared to their actives then they would lose a massive amount of sales. This is why Dynaudio still has their passive line even though they clearly tell everyone their $15000 active is the best product they make. They know internally that actives are far superior. If it was up to them they would ditch every passive speaker in their lineup.

You seem to have a hang-up with baby boomers. What gives?

You have no evidence that they don't buy active speakers. It was the baby-boomer generation that pioneered the uptake of bi/tri-amping and electronic crossovers. Linkwitz immediately comes to mind - he was big on DSP too.

There is an old saw: 'Empty vessels make the most sound'.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Well we are in the information age now. Innovations move faster and faster by the day. So anyone who continues to embrace past ideals, and refuses to move forward at the pace of innovation, is going to have a very rough time. Especially if they run a business.

Your posts strike me as those of someone young, enthusiastic and inexperienced. I do not mean that as an insult. It is an observation.

I'll tell a tale (a true one) which probably won't get through to you, but hey what can I do?

One of my best mates in school was a couple years into his first position as a mechanical design engineer. He called me up just bitterly complaining because his boss had vetoed the design department getting the top of the line color, two sided, high resolution copier currently the best on the market. He described the extreme conservatism of his boss, and how he seemed unable to grasp the benefits of such a machine. His boss even said the cost wasn't the problem. His boss was simply going by a credo of conservatism and the idea enough is enough and too much can only complicate things. Complication inherently creates problems. So a good quality black and white copier was the way to go. My friend was very forward looking and innovative always looking to go further faster than the competition. In time he parted ways with that outfit over repeated clashes with his boss with the overly conservative approach. His boss was an eminent engineer of many accomplishments.

Now, my friend is probably in context about twice as conservative as the boss he couldn't stand when that boss was his current age. Even his wife jokes with me that he is the only design engineer she knows that has become anti-technology. I don't know how that all happened, but it just did. I hear him telling of keeping it simple in ways he once would have denounced as anti-deluvian thinking. Within his box of thinking it all makes very good sense. He even knows this about himself. And yet, feelings and rationality interact in strange ways. Aging plays a part that is more than just years.

And as a final comment on this post. Higher quality audio has pretty much always been the province of late middle age men. They are a somewhat conservative bunch just by being affluent middle age men. Innovation happens, and things do advance, but often much slower in the short term than you think.

 

[Wombat]

So now we're going from a conversion on technical merits of speakers, to an outright personal attack? Is that encouraged in the forum rule book?

Not a personal attack but a critique from your posting style.

 

[Audiocrusader]

You seem to have a hang-up with baby boomers. What gives?

You have no evidence that they don't buy active speakers. It was the baby-boomer generation that pioneered the uptake of bi/tri-amping and electronic crossovers. Linkwitz immediately comes to mind - he was big on DSP too.

There is an old saw: 'Empty vessels make the most sound'.

There's been ample studies on the demographics who buy active vs passive speakers. Ask any large manufacturer who builds both.

 

[Wombat]

Your posts strike me as those of someone young, enthusiastic and inexperienced. I do not mean that as an insult. It is an observation.

I'll tell a tale (a true one) which probably won't get through to you, but hey what can I do?

One of my best mates in school was a couple years into his first position as a mechanical design engineer. He called me up just bitterly complaining because his boss had vetoed the design department getting the top of the line color, two sided, high resolution copier currently the best on the market. He described the extreme conservatism of his boss, and how he seemed unable to grasp the benefits of such a machine. His boss even said the cost wasn't the problem. His boss was simply going by a credo of conservatism and the idea enough is enough and too much can only complicate things. Complication inherently creates problems. So a good quality black and white copier was the way to go. My friend was very forward looking and innovative always looking to go further faster than the competition. In time he parted ways with that outfit over repeated clashes with his boss with the overly conservative approach. His boss was an eminent engineer of many accomplishments.

Now, my friend is probably in context about twice as conservative as the boss he couldn't stand when that boss was his current age. Even his wife jokes with me that he is the only design engineer she knows that has become anti-technology. I don't know how that all happened, but it just did. I hear him telling of keeping it simple in ways he once would have denounced as anti-deluvian thinking. Within his box of thinking it all makes very good sense. He even knows this about himself. And yet, feelings and rationality interact in strange ways. Aging plays a part that is more than just years.

And as a final comment on this post. Higher quality audio has pretty much always been the province of late middle age men. They are a somewhat conservative bunch just by being affluent middle age men. Innovation happens, and things do advance, but often much slower in the short term than you think.

45 years young, in fact.

 

[Wombat]

There's been ample studies on the demographics who buy active vs passive speakers. Ask any large manufacturer who builds both.

Links? References?