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Let's talk CD Players!

Frank Dernie

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Any of you guys ever own a Spectral CD player? I had friends with a couple. I could never make myself pay that much especially as I had external DACs, but those were beautiful machines.
I had the Spectral SDR 2000 DAC with that Goldmund transport. I had a Spectral DCM20 preamp and DMA180 power amp too.
In the end I changed the Spectral stuff for Goldmund, partly because of an annoying letter from Spectral and partly because it all matched and was designed to stack one on top of the others so it took up much less space.
Without the annoying letter I probably would still be using the Spectral stuff, though maybe the attractions of the Devialet would have obsoleted them too.
 

Jaysz

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Just sold mine as didn't really like the sound of it
Would of kept it as some times its easier just to play a cd and not have to boot pc up and open programmes
 

Herbert

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Playing a CD can be very Relaxing, isn´t it? I remember working on a concert video for a friend,
all acoustic Instruments, recorded in 24/96 , using a rare (and expensive) Schoeps KFM-6 Sphere microphone.
No limiting, no EQ.
I did film it with 6 cameras and it was almost a month of editing and colour matching 6 cameras. We had no
money but invented some DOP´s who brought their DSLR with them. The range of cameras was from the first
HD-broadcast camera from Ikegami to some Sony A7II and III. I threw a Panasonic GH2 in.
Besides doing the right cut at the right moment,matching cameras from two decades
was a time consuming nightmare. Saving money on one end produces a
lot of work on the other. All the time I edited with the 24/96 sound master.
After editing was finished I was also involved into transferring the 24/96 into 16/44.1 for
the CD issue. But when I received the CD I was surprised how warm, spatial and transparent the concert now sounded.
Did we do some EQ or further mastering?
Not at all!
It was just the first ime I could listen to the music and relax...
 

restorer-john

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The basic idea goes much further:
To design a linear transport from ground up as patents have expired and quality CD-mechs
are not produced any more - there is only plastic garbage like the Sony KHM-313 and Sanyo SF-DV34 available, that´s it.
These short-lived transports no matter if you are Accuphase or Pro-Ject
(see my post 104 in this thread) or the piled boom-box next to the supermarket´s checkout.


But I did not find any investor yet as everyone jumps on the streaming wagon and as the idea
is not quick money (or selling garbage by high end vodoo gibberish) but to produce sustainable HiFi:
Machines that are completely repairable -down to the laser diode- and upgradeable. Don´t buy new,
just send in.

But let's be realistic here, you are taking an obsolete/NLA Sony mechanism and putting it in an over-the-top milled aluminium case in one situation and then considering designing and building a linear motor entire CD mechanism (and control system) in the next. One is a one-off project done for love (I love them too!) and the other is a possible short-run production product with limited appeal and a likely sky-high target price.

As you are aware, the best mechanisms used a BSL/Brushless spindle motor and linear motors for sled control. So you're going to build a BSL motor too? You can't use a stock standard 5.9V Mabuchi brushed spindle motor and expect it to last more than a few years. They are the single most worn out part in CD players due to the strain they are put under by harsh servo drive ICs with aggressive seek times. A BSL/brushless is the only choice.

Are you going to persuade Sony to put the CXA-xxx series ICs back onto silicon to control your mechanism, because there's really no other option is there? Can't see them doing that...ever...and certainly not without supplying the mech to go with it...

Or you can use a Sanyo mechanism and a range of existing ICs (some still in production by various manufacturers) for signal processing and control. Benefit is you can keep entire mechanisms in stock and repairs are easy and cheap. You can still make your over-the-top audiophile casework and all will be well. And the potential for actually being able to make money is a possibility too.

Consider the big players in high end like Accuphase. They still have stock of all the Sony mechs and lasers for their products. All the obsolete ones we know and love. But you cannot buy them. Don't even try. :) But a respected player like them, with considerable access to manufacturing resources and a loyal market of Japanese audiophiles who adore the Compact Disc, have also made the decision to use a commodity mechanism going forward. Nothing else would make economic sense would it?

I've got some very first generation players where the entire tracking/focus/sled/RF etc is done completely discrete- no integrated large scale custom ICs and it isn't pretty. They are an absolute nightmare to align, letalone keep in alignment, and they use a dial-cord/worm drive tracking system- no linear motors or sub 1sec access times either. So, building your own front end is challenging to say the least.

I think we've all come to the same place in regards to simplicity of the mechanism- no complicated loading mechanisms, drawers and clamps. No belts to perish and as few gears as possible to crack up. The old Philips CD-100 top loader style. But they weren't the only ones to do early top loading- Sanyo, Toshiba, B&O, Sony etc all did them and once the D-50 Sony was released, we had hand held top loaders.

Personally, I think there is an opportunity to have an audiophile-approved transport that uses off-the-shelf parts and comes with a spare mechanism or two in the box. Just like a spare fuse. A Sanyo mech is plug and play- no alignment required.

:)
 

splattened

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- Do you still own a dedicated* CD Player (or players)? *plays CDs only Why or why not?
- If yes, what model(s)?

Yes, I have a Cambridge Audio CXC. I bought it because I grew up in the 90s and have lots of CDs. Even when I got into digital music, I liked my files to be lossless (FLAC) if possible and would often buy CDs to rip them. So I have a couple hundred CDs, and it's nice/fun to be able to listen to them. I have a turntable and cassette deck too because I find it all fun.

And is there a case for more expensive (yet still sensibly priced) CD transports such as the Cambridge Audio CXC? Is it supposed to be more durable? It's twice the price ofvan entry level Marantz but hey, if it lasts twice as long before needing repairs...

I own the CXC. I bought a cheaper NAD C 538 CD player prior to this and it made an audible chirping noise every few seconds when playing. Not an issue if you play loud or sit away from the player in a larger room, but I live in an apartment so I don’t really crank the volume, and I don't sit too far from the speakers and equipment. So for me it was often audible and annoying for some music. So I replaced it with a CXC which I recently bought refurbished on eBay for $300 USD, which it is still listed for: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cambridge-Audio-CXC-CD-Transport-Black-Refurbished/253295915204
 

restorer-john

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NAD C 538 CD player prior to this and it made an audible chirping noise every few seconds when playing.

Every few seconds huh? The sled motor on a typical CD player will move in bursts every few seconds. I would consider looking at the tracking motor and it's associated gear train and rack. Often, the motor gear itself can have a tiny crack right through the nylon spur gear and the gear will still function but becomes noisy as it meshes. Even a single speck of sand/grit stuck to the lubrication on the motor or gear train can cause the problem you are describing. Otherwise, clean off all the lubricant, and re-lube the gears, guide rails and guides.
 
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Herbert

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But let's be realistic here, you are taking an obsolete/NLA Sony mechanism and putting it in an over-the-top milled aluminium case in one situation and then considering designing and building a linear motor entire CD mechanism (and control system) in the next. One is a one-off project done for love (I love them too!) and the other is a possible short-run production product with limited appeal and a likely sky-high target price.

As you are aware, the best mechanisms used a BSL/Brushless spindle motor and linear motors for sled control. So you're going to build a BSL motor too? You can't use a stock standard 5.9V Mabuchi brushed spindle motor and expect it to last more than a few years. They are the single most worn out part in CD players due to the strain they are put under by harsh servo drive ICs with aggressive seek times. A BSL/brushless is the only choice.

Are you going to persuade Sony to put the CXA-xxx series ICs back onto silicon to control your mechanism, because there's really no other option is there? Can't see them doing that...ever...and certainly not without supplying the mech to go with it...

Or you can use a Sanyo mechanism and a range of existing ICs (some still in production by various manufacturers) for signal processing and control. Benefit is you can keep entire mechanisms in stock and repairs are easy and cheap. You can still make your over-the-top audiophile casework and all will be well. And the potential for actually being able to make money is a possibility too.

Consider the big players in high end like Accuphase. They still have stock of all the Sony mechs and lasers for their products. All the obsolete ones we know and love. But you cannot buy them. Don't even try. :) But a respected player like them, with considerable access to manufacturing resources and a loyal market of Japanese audiophiles who adore the Compact Disc, have also made the decision to use a commodity mechanism going forward. Nothing else would make economic sense would it?

I've got some very first generation players where the entire tracking/focus/sled/RF etc is done completely discrete- no integrated large scale custom ICs and it isn't pretty. They are an absolute nightmare to align, letalone keep in alignment, and they use a dial-cord/worm drive tracking system- no linear motors or sub 1sec access times either. So, building your own front end is challenging to say the least.

I think we've all come to the same place in regards to simplicity of the mechanism- no complicated loading mechanisms, drawers and clamps. No belts to perish and as few gears as possible to crack up. The old Philips CD-100 top loader style. But they weren't the only ones to do early top loading- Sanyo, Toshiba, B&O, Sony etc all did them and once the D-50 Sony was released, we had hand held top loaders.

Personally, I think there is an opportunity to have an audiophile-approved transport that uses off-the-shelf parts and comes with a spare mechanism or two in the box. Just like a spare fuse. A Sanyo mech is plug and play- no alignment required.

:)

You forget something important:
Very soon no one will be around any more to produce transports.

Get to the next international HiFi Fair and visit the OEM area:
Hundreds of mostly chinese makers, not one transport on display for 6 years

So called High Enders like Accuphase have to live with what is left around
Why didn´t they start to do develop transports themselves: Margins of course!
Can you proof that Accuphase still stores 30 year old BU-1C?
All you need is a valid serial number for asking them
For the newer models:
Try to get hold on an Accuphase Service Manual, they use crap like a KHM-313,
where only one steel rod is used and plastic slides on plastic. For SACD it is the Sanyo DVM-34.
Panasonic aquired Sanyo some yeras ago. Go to their industrialpages and try to find an OEM transport.

You also forget that most of the fancy chips are more or less packages stuffed with opamps and logic families.
They did not have them when they presented the first prototypes in the late seventies, nor programmable microcontrollers
Mr Morita and Mr Karajan sat at the table with the mechanics, the electronics was stuffed underneath, hidden by cloth.
Since then something has happened that is called minuatirization. This is why we do not carry cell phones in handcarts.

About the "nightmarish" aligning / setting up. Not to me-replace the trimmers with multiturns and off you go.

About top loaders: Weiss Ingineering from Switzerland built decent ones around 2007:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/weiss/weiss.html
 
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splattened

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Every few seconds huh? The sled motor on a typical CD player will move in bursts every few seconds. I would consider looking at the tracking motor and it's associated gear train and rack. Often, the motor gear itself can have a tiny crack right through the nylon spur gear and the gear will still function but becomes noisy as it meshes. Even a single speck of sand/grit stuck to the lubrication on the motor or gear train can cause the problem you are describing. Otherwise, clean off all the lubricant, and re-lube the gears, guide rails and guides.

Yes, every few seconds. Thanks for the suggestion. I might also contact NAD and see if it's a known problem. Maybe it's a bad part they can replace. I read at least one review on Crutchfield reporting this issue and hoped it was a one-off problem when I ordered it, but it doesn't appear to be. For now I'm letting a relative use it. It's a non-issue in their listening space.
 

Dialectic

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I had the Spectral SDR 2000 DAC with that Goldmund transport. I had a Spectral DCM20 preamp and DMA180 power amp too.
In the end I changed the Spectral stuff for Goldmund, partly because of an annoying letter from Spectral and partly because it all matched and was designed to stack one on top of the others so it took up much less space.
Without the annoying letter I probably would still be using the Spectral stuff, though maybe the attractions of the Devialet would have obsoleted them too.
What did the annoying letter say?
 
OP
typericey

typericey

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Steve G's guest Miguel and his CXC mods:

Miguel seems to be the kinda guy who can feel at home in this forum (or maybe he already is here).

Also, the video got me sold to the CXC. Probably the best option out there for a brand new player.
 

Frank Dernie

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What did the annoying letter say?
I had a pair of active Apogee Divas powered by 2 Krell stereo class A amps( KSA200b) which were a bit hot in the summer in France, where I was working at the time.
I had a Spectral amp driving Sonus Faber Extremas at home in England and wrote to Spectral with details of the Divas asking if their amp would be happy driving them, I intended to buy another if so.
The reply was basically that active speakers were a bad idea and not recommended by Spectral.
In the end after a 2 year search auditioning a wide range of stuff I sold the Extremas and Divas and bought the Goldmund Epilogs I am listening to at the moment anyway.
 

Herbert

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Steve G's guest Miguel and his CXC mods:
OMG, batallions of engineers did the cabling wrong!
hEeDitC.jpg


Bottom line: Somebody else who is missing to tweak his record player.
It caught my attention that the Cambridge misses a transformer at the SPDIF-RCA Output -
so if you do not want to use optical out, adding one for proper galvanic isolation would be one
useful tweak to start with.

Adding decoupling capacitors at the power lines - really?
Extremely likely that every IC in the Cambridge is already decoupled, so no benefit here.
Decoupling BTW that was fixed in the good old days of the CDP-101 pictured above by
adding ferrite beads close to the IC´s power Inputs.
They even added mains filters back then...
 
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typericey

typericey

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Yes, I have a Cambridge Audio CXC.

Would you recommend it? How's the reliability? Has it ever broken down on you or had tracking/reading issues?

Also, can you confirm if it plays tracks continuously without gaps? I listen to a lot of continuous mixes and gaps between tracks is definitely a deal breaker. I've read a user review of CA's entry level Topaz CD10 that it does not play continuously.
 

splattened

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Would you recommend it? How's the reliability? Has it ever broken down on you or had tracking/reading issues?

Also, can you confirm if it plays tracks continuously without gaps? I listen to a lot of continuous mixes and gaps between tracks is definitely a deal breaker. I've read a user review of CA's entry level Topaz CD10 that it does not play continuously.

I recently got it so I can’t talk from owning it a long time, but so far so good. It does play tracks continuously, no gaps.
 

sonci

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I recently got it so I can’t talk from owning it a long time, but so far so good. It does play tracks continuously, no gaps.
How's possible for a cd player not to play gapless, unless playing data disc or programmed tracks..
 
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typericey

typericey

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How's possible for a cd player not to play gapless, unless playing data disc or programmed tracks..

Had the same disbelief (and disgust) with the “CD Player” of my 2018 car. Not sure why it pauses between tracks, but my guess is that it’s not a real CD player, rather a CD-ROM drive with badly coded firmware.
 
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typericey

typericey

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If his posts on Audiophile Style (fka Computer Audiophile) are anything to go by, I doubt it... :rolleyes:

Dunno anything about him except in Steve's video. Judging from the video he leans on the objective side of things and admits not all his mods have measurable/audible improvements. He says he's a scientist (hey, that's this forum's middle name). Overall better off than your typical snake oil mixed with Kool aid drinking audiophool.

Btw, glanced at your location and IMO you're basically living in heaven. I love NZ.
 
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