Review and Measurements of Totaldac d1-six DAC

[Hugo9000]

Regarding the case, in the front oblique view, it looks like they are trying to give the impression that it is machined from a large block of black anodized aluminum, with a somewhat hefty (glass? can't tell from the little pics) faceplate on the front. So that's an illusion, the case is just cheap, bent sheet metal? Not having any vents on top adds to the illusion that it's solid machined metal, as most sheetmetal electronic components seem to place some venting on top...

An illusion of heft is okay for an inexpensive item, but there is no excuse at the TotalDac's price for it to be so cheaply made. Look at the beautifully made dCS Bartok, at a lower price than this TotalDac, for example. My old Denon receiver (granted, it is old enough to have still been made in Japan haha!) has much higher build quality than the TotalDac, and I paid a fraction of the price.

 

[Andrex]

So 5900€ for the reclocker and the cubox + 1750€ for the gigafilter (the bottleneck in all systems except Totaldac) + 1200 to 6300€ for the live power depending on how many stamping sheets you want to plug..and that tested on your d150 best seller (46k€) ? Come on let’s be serious.

I will move to read mode now as it seems you are just playing a bad game

I don't want to be pretentious, but It's the only way I can really appreciate the Spice Girls

 

[Thomas savage]

Will buy a pair of the TosLink version if it's available ...

If you plug 4 in the sound really starts to take off..

 

[BDWoody]

This is what he wrote in French:
Autant laisser un peu de mystère sur les NOS, les mesures, la sensibilité d'écoute, surtout que je suis loin de tout savoir évidement sur ces sujets. Ils ne sont pas simples c'est tout, et je n'ai pas envie non plus de dévoiler les recette de mes DACs. Le mystère fait parler aussi.
Read more at http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/...aldac-t29963819-5520.html#g2mHqowkb25Jzd2U.99

Except...it isn't so mysterious, is it? Oooohhhh...magic...what an embarassment.

 

[daftcombo]

Regarding the case, in the front oblique view, it looks like they are trying to give the impression that it is machined from a large block of black anodized aluminum, with a somewhat hefty (glass? can't tell from the little pics) faceplate on the front. So that's an illusion, the case is just cheap, bent sheet metal? Not having any vents on top adds to the illusion that it's solid machined metal, as most sheetmetal electronic components seem to place some venting on top...

An illusion of heft is okay for an inexpensive item, but there is no excuse at the TotalDac's price for it to be so cheaply made. Look at the beautifully made dCS Bartok, at a lower price than this TotalDac, for example. My old Denon receiver (granted, it is old enough to have still been made in Japan haha!) has much higher build quality than the TotalDac, and I paid a fraction of the price.

Looks more like this once fully setup:

 

[KSTR]

We are still waiting for your THD+N spectrum of a 1 kHz tone. Merci !

FWIW, this is what a theoretical ideal filterless NOS DAC would look like, 1k @ 48kHz sample rate:

Looks like Amir's plot, just without the real distortion (which is not very low, with all those spikes at -90dB thereabouts).
As I've said before, the image components will dominate in a standard wide bandwith THD+N measurement, in this case the meter would read about -30dB (3%) where the true harmonic distortion is actually zero.

 

[FredYves]

Audiophonics are french and make decent DACs for 1/100 the price.

DAC from Audiophonics are Chinese to my knowledge. Doesn’t mean they are bad.

 

[sweetsounds]

@amirm, @totaldac
Could both of you please come back to an objective discussion, please? I see no need for bashing the other side. Same holds for many of the forum participants who are trying to ridicule the respective other. Back to the Topic:

A) Measuring a NOS DAC
A NOS DAC will have a jaggy sinus by definition (simply because it isn't smoothing the curve, but plays the input signal). That shouldn't surprise anybody. 16Bit will give you a dynamic range of 96dB due to quantization errors. That is what I see in the graphs.
There also could be an issue with using different frequencies for signal and measurements causing artefacts in some graphs.

NOS effects can be seen here: https://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/06/measurements-digital-filters-and.html
Surprisingly, that amirm didn't hear a difference.

amirm, have you measured the DAC with a 24Bit/96kHz signal?

B) Psychoacoustic
This is very well studied, it has been implemented in MP3. Ever wondered how you can leave out 80% of the data and still have difficulties in hearing it? I believe, that time domain is undervalued over frequency analysis in audio measurements. It is much more difficult to do, but could be key in understanding why DACs sound different (beyond imaginated effects). It would be great to compare a music wave-form and substract the re-digitized DAC output from the input and show the result. The output filter has an impact on the wave-form especially when reaching digital clipping levels.

Filter effects can be (or can't be) seen here
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/audiophile-myth-260-detestable-digital.html

Science is not about measuring, but about finding and understanding phenomenons. Let's get back to that.

 

[gvl]

What I want to see is which of the issues Amir has found can be detected with a microphone after an amp and speakers.

 

[FredYves]

The new DAC, which I was trying to source out from the second-hand market, is not to replace my Topping DX7s of which I am happy and do not have any plan to replace ... In fact I did not say the 8K DAC was going to replace it ...

@Thomas savage ... Just a bit out of topic ...
We're setting up in my company a lounge room where we receive our customers, of whom many are from China. They love the French' design and technology, so we make them happy on that by filling the lounge with French items, from champagne to beer via Focal speakers & Devialet electronics ...
That's the reason for which I was (and still) looking for a French made D/A converter, with a background of reputation and technical content consistent with the rest of the lounge set up. But I have a budget to meet, in the low end as we cannot display a cheapy item with a fancy French name and a black Made in China back label, as well as in the high end.
@FredYves Pls. PM me with any suggestion, it would be highly appreciated !

I may have an issue with bias, placebo effect, basic lack of understanding of audio as you have kindly and repeatedly stated in your nice posts directed to me. But I can assure you, my French is good. This is what you wrote on homecinema.fr today:

« J'ai planifié de m'acheter 1 nouveau DAC (je suis actuellement équipé d'1 Topping DX7s, que lui a remplacé 1 NAD M51) avec 1 budget entre 5,000 et 8,000 eur en occasion. C'est pour cela que depuis Octobre-2018 je suis avec beaucoup d’intérêt le forum ASR d'Amir, à Seattle, aux USA. (C'est bien suite aux recensions d'Amir que j'ai remplacé mon NAD M51 avec le Topping DX7s.)

Bref pour dire que j'avais placé logiquement le TotalDAC parmi ma short list.
Comme beaucoup de monde, je suis vraiment déçu des performances techniques de la machine à l'issue des essais d'Amir, mais encore plus par les réponses justificatives données par Mr Brient en défense de son produit. »

I thought ASR has proven that the best DAC is the one with strong measurements and reasonable price. I trust the measurements but on my side, I can only give advice on what I have listened to, and to me Chord Hugo2 and RME ADI2 are excellent below 2k€. I am very much curious about Okto DAC and Matrix Element X with their strong recommendations from ASR / Amirm. Matrix is available via Audiophonics. Okto still to come. But I cannot share a personal opinion as I didn’t have the opportunity to listen to them.

 

[Herbert]

About the case: Machining from one piece of Aluminium is easy, but finishing and anodizing is not.
In short, when one is machinining from one big block of aluminium and wants a good finish, he is resticted to two
alloys (EN AW 5754/5083) that both anodize very dull. EN AW 6060 is the only alloy that anodizes bright,
but you wom´t get sheets thicker than 12mm unless someone casts a ton directly for you
I know for sure as I am working on a prototype and tested about 15 companies here in Germany.
I quickly gave up on brushing as no one seems capable to get the hairlines straight by hand.
So the requirement was stripped down to "make it look as good as my Macbook"
using the technique of bead-blasting and almost all companies failed on that as well.
Two of them even rejected my request, stating that finishing for "High End" is too demanding.
So I understand when cheap looking sheets for the casing or and a slab of aluminium (probably the 6060 mentioned)
even Acrylic for the front panel come into play because these are all alloys easy to be anodized and finished in small
quantities by a local supplier when you are a one man company and if you want to stay on a safe side...

 

[KSTR]

A NOS DAC will have a jaggy sinus by definition (simply because it isn't smoothing the curve, but plays the input signal). That shouldn't surprise anybody. 16Bit will give you a dynamic range of 96dB due to quantization errors. That is what I see in the graphs.
[...]
amirm, have you measured the DAC with a 24Bit/96kHz signal?

From the linearity plot I would gather it has more than 16bits....

 

[daftcombo]

ASR has proven that we can have a transparent DAC + headphones amplifier for 9$ including shipping.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...pple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/

If one wants more inputs, outputs, functionnalities, remote control, or if one wants to support local designers, one is free to pay more, up to 13.000$ for instance.

 

[Shadrach]

Btw , here are my qualifications in the arena of quantum physics..,
Quantum mechanics (QM; also known as quantum physics, quantum theory, the wave mechanical model, or matrix mechanics), including quantum field theory, is a fundamental theory in physics which describes nature at the smallest scales of energy levels of atoms and subatomic particles.[2]

I will assume your all well impressed .

Shame about your spelling/grammar though.

 

[FredYves]

It is really a pity but all that thread is going nowhere now. It is useless to attack TotalDac and Vincent Brient for almost everything now (price, bad looking, profits, website, etc).
The real facts are the one stated by Amirm and are not good at all as compared to many / almost all other DACs measured by Amirm.

I said repeatedly that this bad measurements are not translated into what I am hearing, as I have the priviledge to have one TotalDac among other DAC. This argument is weak in an audio science forum, and is weak because it is only the say of one individual (valid argument, but apart from Amirm and myself, who in that thread has ever listened to TotalDac?).

It is for me really a pity that Vincent Brient, who is absolutely not a marketer (see his answers...) but an entrepreneur and an engineer, is not taking advantage of that thread to explain himself. Yes, I do hope for him that he is making money, but it is mostly a company of one so do not believe it is a gold mine. As compared to the big audio brands, he certainty doesn’t have the money and marketing surface to influence with money all the guys who said great things about his products.

I am hearing some other voices in that forum who try to come with some arguments related to NOS DAC. It is a pity as well that they are not taken seriously, as the thread is now mostly going to killing Vincent.

I admit he is killing himself with his answers, but it is very sad.

 

[AndrovichIV]

Come on....it has nothing to do with the topic

It's super unprofessional to have such a website if you're a business ...

 

[diegooo1972]

The problem is that what we hear is not what it is. Is just what we think it is. And it's different for everyone.
Every double blind test fail miserably also vs bad and very cheap components sometimes.
We must accept that we can't hear certain things.
In the end the only method we can use to judge equipments is scientific.
That go well beyond what a man can do with his hearing system and his emotional brain elaboration.

 

[Shadrach]

It is really a pity but all that thread is going nowhere now. It is useless to attack TotalDac and Vincent Brient for almost everything now (price, bad looking, profits, website, etc).
The real facts are the one stated by Amirm and are not good at all as compared to many / almost all other DACs measured by Amirm.

I said repeatedly that this bad measurements are not translated into what I am hearing, as I have the priviledge to have one TotalDac among other DAC. This argument is weak in an audio science forum, and is weak because it is only the say of one individual (valid argument, but apart from Amirm and myself, who in that thread has ever listened to TotalDac?).

It is for me really a pity that Vincent Brient, who is absolutely not a marketer (see his answers...) but an entrepreneur and an engineer, is not taking advantage of that thread to explain himself. Yes, I do hope for him that he is making money, but it is mostly a company of one so do not believe it is a gold mine. As compared to the big audio brands, he certainty doesn’t have the money and marketing surface to influence with money all the guys who said great things about his products.

I am hearing some other voices in that forum who try to come with some arguments related to NOS DAC. It is a pity as well that they are not taken seriously, as the thread is now mostly going to killing Vincent.

I admit he is killing himself with his answers, but it is very sad.

This has been the case for a few who claim engineering expertise and superior products here on ASR.
The sensible thing to do imo when your product fails to test well is to say,
'thank you for testing the product. We are always striving to improve out products and we will take into consideration the results of your measurements' and then leave!
I find it hard to believe that some of those who have responded to ASR test are intelligent enough to be the engineers they claim to be.
The real irony is, the vast majority would find this dac perfectly satisfactory in their systems. A great many of the measurement shortfalls are just not going to be heard.
In this case there is still the matter of the ridiculous price, but fools and their money are it seems not in short supply.
If I had spent this amount of money on this dac, I would not admit under any circumstances that I had wasted my money.
I have done much the same with my loudspeakers. They are good, but there are better, but other factors such as emotional attachment, time and money spent building them are always going to outweigh the argument that something else performs better. I will just say I prefer the sound of these and that will be the end of the matter. It won't matter and contrary to amirm's assessment I will not engage on a round of speaker swapping because I'm fundamentally dissatisfied. Such is the power of the mind.

 

[daftcombo]

Here you go:
View attachment 30191

And zoomed:

View attachment 30192

Looks very irregular to me.

Where those measurements made with or without the FIR on?

According to totaldac site you should have better squares with FIR off:
http://www.totaldac.com/principles.htm (see the 2 oscillations)

 

[amirm]

A NOS DAC will have a jaggy sinus by definition (simply because it isn't smoothing the curve, but plays the input signal). That shouldn't surprise anybody.

I am sure it is a shock to many of their high-end customers. After all, they all believe digital is bad because of "steps." Now we have a DAC that produces said steps.

16Bit will give you a dynamic range of 96dB due to quantization errors. That is what I see in the graphs.

How? Harmonic distortion is clearly visible:

This is the spec for the product:

Clearly it says it supports 24 bits. It at least dithers down to 24 bit as shown in the linearity test.