Will consumers buy the Dutch & Dutch 8C?

[Purité Audio]

Oh, so 8C have built in EQ feature? I don't remember that feature to be tested by Stereophile. Maybe you can present measurements here so we can see how good of a job they did in your room?

I haven’t read Kal’s review in full, the 8Cs have 24 in built parametric EQ filters in each speaker, adjustable Q, gain etc,
Mitch mentions and uses them in his review.
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/
They work really well, corroborated by re-measuring with the excellent REW.
Keith

 

[Sergei]

Are the 8Cs noticeably better than, for instance, Genelec 8351, in combination with a decent subwoofer?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/8351APM--genelec-8351a-3-way-coaxial-powered-studio-monitor
Do we know how they compare on THD and IMD, measured in a same setup?

 

[Krunok]

I haven’t read Kal’s review in full, the 8Cs have 24 in built parametric EQ filters in each speaker, adjustable Q, gain etc,
Mitch mentions and uses them in his review.
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/
They work really well, corroborated by re-measuring with the excellent REW.
Keith

Nice read - Mitch did a great job evaluating them!

 

[Purité Audio]

Sound on Sound’s Phil Ward reviews the 8Cs, I have the full review, pm if you would like a copy.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c

Keith

 

[Purité Audio]

Are the 8Cs noticeably better than, for instance, Genelec 8351, in combination with a decent subwoofer?
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/8351APM--genelec-8351a-3-way-coaxial-powered-studio-monitor
Do we know how they compare on THD and IMD, measured in a same setup?

The 8351 were good here near field , from a metre or so ,but further away they didn’t convince haven’t tried themwith a sub.
Keith

 

[Krunok]

Are the 8Cs noticeably better than, for instance, Genelec 8351, in combination with a decent subwoofer?

Only Mitch can make such comparison!

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/8351APM--genelec-8351a-3-way-coaxial-powered-studio-monitor
Do we know how they compare on THD and IMD, measured in a same setup?

Decently well, but not spectacular. For example, Revel F206 did noticeably better with THD measurement.

 

[Thomas savage]

A side by side test Vs the new B&W formation speakers plus sub would be interesting.. the B&W uses some sort of base control and auto sub integration obviously a more established company and about 60% cheaper.

Btw the only guys getting rich in high end hifi are the distribution guys and a few dealers. Many of the small manufacturers don't make much of anything. I'm sure Dutch&Dutch ain't making huge sums in fact I'd bet they operate on a loss if I had to guess.

Some designers just want to be free to make what they want without all the compromise of working for large electronic companies . Their choice IME is not down to making a fortune.

 

[BillG]

side by side test Vs the new B&W formation speakers plus sub would be interesting..

Yeah, I've seen a few usability reviews (no major complaints in that area) and some subjective listening reviews of them (again, no major complaints) but nothing like a performance analysis so far...

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I haven’t read Kal’s review in full, the 8Cs have 24 in built parametric EQ filters in each speaker, adjustable Q, gain etc,
Mitch mentions and uses them in his review.

As did I.

Nice read - Mitch did a great job evaluating them!

Agreed.

 

[Dialectic]

Only Mitch can make such comparison!



Decently well, but not spectacular. For example, Revel F206 did noticeably better with THD measurement.

View attachment 30017

If compared directly to measurements of a monopole speaker, the measurements of the 8Cs in the NRC's anechoic chamber are liable to be misconstrued. Some discussion is here.

 

[Thomas savage]

Yeah, I've seen a few usability reviews (no major complaints in that area) and some subjective listening reviews of them (again, no major complaints) but nothing like a performance analysis so far...

If only Amir tested speakers ...

 

[Krunok]

If only Amir tested speakers ...

If only UK stays in EU..

 

[Dialectic]

That being said, I think @Purité Audio is overdoing it a bit with his on-line persona. I can't see my resellers telling me some device "destroys everything else" or "go back to your books, old geezer, the young guy who just left was at least able to understand" if I don't fully agree with the sales message he is conveying... The "you are about to die anyway, treat yourself to the best while you still have time" response to @restorer-john above was priceless...

Keith's "online persona" is what made me want to buy from Purité Audio.

But in light of Keith's posts here and on WBF (before we were all banned by the gynecologist), I thought that buying from Purité Audio would be damned entertaining, and it was. I also got an excellent side-by-side demo of the Kii Threes and D&D 8Cs.

 

[Dimifoot]

Even though I love the concept of DSP controlled active speakers, I am disappointed by the lack of available multichannel preamps with digital outputs (apart from some really expensive ones) to control them in multichannel/home theater setups, without the extra A to D/D to A conversion.

 

[Sergei]

The 8351 were good here near field , from a metre or so ,but further away they didn’t convince haven’t tried themwith a sub.
Keith

Executive summary: it is likely that some audiophiles will buy the 8C, especially those well-off bass-heads who have to live and/or work in space-constrained yet climate-controlled rooms/offices. Studios are not likely to buy it en masse, and neither mainstream Hi-Fi consumers.

What I could figure out from the reviews, the most "convincing" quality of 8C is exaggerated bass. Some people claim to like it. From https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/: "In my own listening tests, I prefer the tilted response from 20 Hz to -10 dB @ 20 kHz. To my ears, sounds subjectively balanced or neutral from top to bottom."

There are quite a few other indications that 8C is pushed on the buying public using usual audiophile sales tactics. For instance, from https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1270-dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeakers: "I’m not saying that the two 8” subs in each 8c could produce more bass output than the 13.5” driver in the SVS SB-4000 -- they couldn’t."

The "snake oil" presupposition of the above statement appears to be that the capability of producing bass output only depends on the transducer diameter. But even if it did, is it too difficult to calculate that the four 8" subwoofers in a pair of 8Cs is equivalent to a 16" subwoofer, which has a 40% larger radiating area than the 13.5" one?

So, it appears that 8C is a capable and "reasonably priced" audiophile speaker. Is it going to make a dent in Neumann, Genelec, and Focal sales? I highly doubt this. Is it going to appeal to mass-market? I doubt that too. Especially given the "overnight success" of Edifier and similar brands, more than a decade in the making of course: https://www.consumerreports.org/wir...fier-home-stereo-speakers-beat-luxury-models/.

I appreciate the innovation and attention to quality that D&D is trying to promote. Is it going to be enough? Time will tell. From general principles, the market segment they are addressing is shrinking, both because of the pressure from above being exerted by the well-established studio monitors and Hi-Fi vendors expanding into the meatier parts of consumer market, and pressure from below exemplified by https://www.techhive.com/article/3294202/edifier-s2000-pro-review.html.

 

[PierreV]

Keith's "online persona" is what made me want to buy from Purité Audio. I made the purchase shortly before my wife and I moved from London back to New York, and it would have been at least as easy for me to wait to buy until I was back stateside. But in light of Keith's posts here and on WBF (before we were all banned by the gynecologist), I thought that buying from Purité Audio would be damned entertaining, and it was. I also got an excellent side-by-side demo of the Kii Threes and D&D 8Cs, which I absolutely could not have gotten then (and probably not even now) in New York.

My point exactly. If I lived in UK, I would certainly apply to have Keith as a dealer and would enjoy arguing with him .

As a side note, my partner was around during the delivery/wine/music session and no, she did not interrupt her vacuuming session to enquire about the changes I made to the "stereo", but she chided me for being a bit rough with the dealer at one point. According to him, my turntable deserved an upgrade, an opinion is strongly disagreed with since its only purpose is social, namely to play vinyls people offer me since I am an "audiophile". The wine freed us of our inhibitions and I told the dealer he was the kind of crook who would sell me Nordost Valhalla cables if he could, a potential crime he admitted at once

 

[BillG]

The wine freed us of our inhibitions and I told the dealer he was the kind of crook who would sell me Nordost Valhalla cables if he could, a potential crime he admitted at once

Hahahaha!

 

[JJB70]

I have never listened to D&D speakers but I have no reason to question the overwhelmingly positive reviews they have received. In the world of high end audio gear they are not that expensive, especially given that you do not need a DAC or amplifier. Yes, you can buy a transparent DAC for peanuts and excellent amplifier for not that much but I suspect that those in the market for £9k speakers probably wouldn't be looking at the more affordable amplifiers. And at least the measurements support the premise of good design in this case, something that can most definitely not be assumed in high end hifi. In a sense talking about price is a bit pointless in this segment as you can either afford them or you cannot (alternatively, you are willing to spend that much money on speakers or you are not).

Personally I am not the target market for D&D as I would not spend so much on speakers and am one of those who can reach a level of total contentment with an audio system costing an awful lot less than £9k but I can appreciate why others buy these. And there are far worse and much crazier ways to spend £9k, especially in audio.

For all that, and also in spite of my feelings that the future is active digital speakers and wireless, it is worth remembering that implementation is everything. A good passive speaker can be exceptionally good just as a badly designed active speaker won't be very good.

 

[Purité Audio]

Executive summary: it is likely that some audiophiles will buy the 8C, especially those well-off bass-heads who have to live and/or work in space-constrained yet climate-controlled rooms/offices. Studios are not likely to buy it en masse, and neither mainstream Hi-Fi consumers.

What I could figure out from the reviews, the most "convincing" quality of 8C is exaggerated bass. Some people claim to like it. From https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/: "In my own listening tests, I prefer the tilted response from 20 Hz to -10 dB @ 20 kHz. To my ears, sounds subjectively balanced or neutral from top to bottom."

There are quite a few other indications that 8C is pushed on the buying public using usual audiophile sales tactics. For instance, from https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1270-dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeakers: "I’m not saying that the two 8” subs in each 8c could produce more bass output than the 13.5” driver in the SVS SB-4000 -- they couldn’t."

The "snake oil" presupposition of the above statement appears to be that the capability of producing bass output only depends on the transducer diameter. But even if it did, is it too difficult to calculate that the four 8" subwoofers in a pair of 8Cs is equivalent to a 16" subwoofer, which has a 40% larger radiating area than the 13.5" one?

So, it appears that 8C is a capable and "reasonably priced" audiophile speaker. Is it going to make a dent in Neumann, Genelec, and Focal sales? I highly doubt this. Is it going to appeal to mass-market? I doubt that too. Especially given the "overnight success" of Edifier and similar brands, more than a decade in the making of course: https://www.consumerreports.org/wir...fier-home-stereo-speakers-beat-luxury-models/.

I appreciate the innovation and attention to quality that D&D is trying to promote. Is it going to be enough? Time will tell. From general principles, the market segment they are addressing is shrinking, both because of the pressure from above being exerted by the well-established studio monitors and Hi-Fi vendors expanding into the meatier parts of consumer market, and pressure from below exemplified by https://www.techhive.com/article/3294202/edifier-s2000-pro-review.html.

From my admittedly very small sample of studio customers the SBIr ‘type’ of speakers are rapidly gaining a foothold, their advantages are obvious once you compare them directly to traditional actives/subs.
An engineer I spoke to recently opined that companies such as ATC had ‘lost’ the pro market , hence their marketing push towards the Hi-End.
The bottom line is that the 8Cs just sound better in room, nothing to do with ‘snake oil just solid engineering.
Keith

 

[svart-hvitt]

From my admittedly very small sample of studio customers the SBIr ‘type’ of speakers are rapidly gaining a foothold, their advantages are obvious once you compare them directly to traditional actives/subs.
An engineer I spoke to recently opined that companies such as ATC had ‘lost’ the pro market , hence their marketing push towards the Hi-End.
The bottom line is that the 8Cs just sound better in room, nothing to do with ‘snake oil just solid engineering.
Keith

@Purité Audio ,

You wrote:

«An engineer I spoke to recently opined that companies such as ATC had ‘lost’ the pro market , hence their marketing push towards the Hi-End».

Why do you continue talking negatively about your previous business partners? Do you have proof that ATC and others are losing it?

And FWIW, last I checked Dutch & Dutch’s web page I only saw photos of high end domestic use situations.