No vinyl for you then?Yes it’s a wonder vinyl sounds as good as it does, worth remembering that any amount of distortion can be added in the creation of a file but I personally do not want added distortion in its reproduction.
Keith
No vinyl for you then?Yes it’s a wonder vinyl sounds as good as it does, worth remembering that any amount of distortion can be added in the creation of a file but I personally do not want added distortion in its reproduction.
Keith
This is because the meaning of "objectivism" is always misunderstood.I do find it interesting that “objectivists” can find the charm in an inherently flawed medium, but maybe that’s one of the many exceptions to the rule. Vinyl on a properly set up turntable of good quality does sound lovely, but the dynamic range measurements, distortion, and channel separation are objectively poor.
Many here at ASR are middle-aged or older. Vinyl (and FM radio and crap cassette players) is what they, or we, used as youngsters. So there is a component of nostalgia to tinkering with turntables now. Another part is tinkering with something physical, the tactile sensation. There are probably more factors, perhaps taking more time and listening to whole records with a record player? You can of course also do that with streamed music, but maybe there is something about vinyl that invites you to it more, so to speak.I do find it interesting that “objectivists” can find the charm in an inherently flawed medium, but maybe that’s one of the many exceptions to the rule. Vinyl on a properly set up turntable of good quality does sound lovely, but the dynamic range measurements, distortion, and channel separation are objectively poor.
Sure! I’m solidly in that group and appreciate your point. But my turntable, despite the inherent flaws, can sound better to my ear than my streamer. Sometimes I like it better. I don’t think about how either measures.Many here at ASR are middle-aged or older. Vinyl (and FM radio and crap cassette players) is what they, or we, used as youngsters. So there is a component of nostalgia to tinkering with turntables now. Another part is tinkering with something physical, the tactile sensation. There are probably more factors, perhaps taking more time and listening to whole records with a record player? You can of course also do that with streamed music, but maybe there is something about vinyl that invites you to it more, so to speak.
There are those who use modern cars on a daily basis but take out their vintage car (which objectively has worse performance) and drive it on weekends. Just to get the vintage car experience. Maybe the same with streamed music vs vinyl?
It can sound good though, can’t itOnly since 1975ish.
I have records I must admit I don’t play them very often and I wouldn’t use vinyl for any meaningful comparison.
Keith
I don’t think about how either measures.Sure! I’m solidly in that group and appreciate your point. But my turntable, despite the inherent flaws, can sound better to my ear than my streamer. Sometimes I like it better. I don’t think about how either measures.
Does gear X sound better to you (or you or you) than gear Y? Does it reveal more to you? Like any brand, some will prefer AN to others and some will hate it. Some will prefer Benchmark or whatever. Is it reasonable to read pages of measurements and buy based on data alone without listening?
Wrong! Simple logic: Even if one type of test was designed in the first place for something very specific, if it turns to be good and valid for audio (for example), it doesn’t make it invalid only because it was designed earlier for something else.The issue with proofs is that some of the tests we use in audio were not designed for audio - DBTs for instance
Wrong! Subjective response is a direct result of the physiological response in the brain (synapse firing, etc). Simply call it “DBT for subjective response”.are often conducted by engineers - not psychologists who understand the difference between Validity (the range rule) and reliability and these medical DBTs which are used for physiological responses isn't the same as a a "subjective response" under test.
That is so wrong, I am speechless! Although English is not my native language, I do know some much more adequate English words to describe how stu… stunningly wrong is what you wrote. The problem is that I’ll be banned for good by moderators of this forum, if I wrote them.the problem is that what about the person who got 5/6/7 or 8 out of ten - the engineer considers that a fail and says - see A and B sound the same. But had they gone further to increase "reliability" they "should have" kept testing that person because if that person got 6/10 ten times with a miss for 59/100 - that ALSO meets the .05 Signifane level and they are deemed to have not been able to choose A by chance - thus they could detect a difference in the same way as 9/10.
Oh really? Please give us evidence for that!Now I am not against the DBT as it may sound - just that the test is fallible -
They sound like vinyl, when CD came out I switched immediately, I don’t really see it as a competition, technically and in terms of sound quality and convenience digital is streets ahead but if you like vinyl and the associated kerfuffle…It can sound good though, can’t it
@Richard Austen, can you please answer the question what Audio Note's primary and secondary businesses are? You have a habit of saying here and on another forum that "speakers" are the company's "tertiary" business, as though Audio Note is Lockheed Martin or Nvidia and makes speakers just for fun.
Damien Quintard is not a technical expert, although he is a social media master. This is not an ad hominem attack--I own some of his recordings (and previously heard others on Tidal) and found them to be extremely badly mixed and mastered long before I found out who did the work! His tastes for Audio Note speakers, bad headphones, highly reflective rooms, and, now I'm reading, ancient microphones all lend themselves to great pictures on Instagram and a fun narrative. But this is not how serious recordings are made. Please don't mistake commercial success for technical comptetence.
You can look up Meyers. David G "Psychology" - and learn some introductory Psychology to understand what Validity and Reliability are. A physiological response is in medicine is either the Dru works or it does not work. Subject A - has Diabetes Type II - and has a Blood Glucose level of 12 (so does Subject B) - Subject A is given Metformin and other Diabetes medication - after a month they test - Subject A has a blood glucose level of 5.5 - subject B is still around 12.Wrong! Simple logic: Even if one type of test was designed in the first place for something very specific, if it turns to be good and valid for audio (for example), it doesn’t make it invalid only because it was designed earlier for something else.
Wrong! Subjective response is a direct result of the physiological response in the brain (synapse firing, etc). Simply call it “DBT for subjective response”.
That is so wrong, I am speechless! Although English is not my native language, I do know some much more adequate English words to describe how stu… stunningly wrong is what you wrote. The problem is that I’ll be banned for good by moderators of this forum, if I wrote them.
You do need to read some introductory books for Statistics. Something for absolute beginners in Statistics, like books from series “For Dummies” (https://www.dummies.com/) or from “Idiot’s Guides Series” (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/IDU/idiots-guides/)
Oh really? Please give us evidence for that!
Is it good because it's expensive or good regardless of a hefty price tag?
Within HiFi, the correlation between price and performance seems to be absent. At least regarding DACs BUT we have also seen a lot of expensive amplifiers (tube of course) and speakers that Amir had on the test bench (or Klippel-rigged) that measure mediocre or even poorly.
(yes I know you Pearljam5000 already know this)
Then the question almost always arises, that is to say: Can hear something that can't be measured? I won't go into it because then it's mostly about subjectivity and psychology. Plus there are already threads about that topic on ASR. Since I mentioned DAC for example this 443 page long thread:
Price - performance correlation DACs:
You can look up Meyers. David G "Psychology" - and learn some introductory Psychology to understand what Validity and Reliability are. A physiological response is in medicine is either the Dru works or it does not work. Subject A - has Diabetes Type II - and has a Blood Glucose level of 12 (so does Subject B) - Subject A is given Metformin and other Diabetes medication - after a month they test - Subject A has a blood glucose level of 5.5 - subject B is still around 12.
The drug works - there is no "survey" and no "Q/A" involved. "Do you feel like the drug worked? Maybe Subject A says - nah feel the same - and Subject B says - "feel great Doc" - With Q/A - people can get it wrong.
The Audio DBT is massively different - you play a piece of music - you play it again - and you are trying to listen for some trait in the music that sounds different - perhaps you will focus on the cymbals given they are high frequency - maybe both players or amps sound the same 95% of the time. You are now trying to figure out what isolated piece of the music sounds different (arguably perhaps straining to find it). Maybe you hear it and maybe you don't but your brain does not get trapped into feedback loops - it has a defence mechanism to give it something satisfying so that it can move on. Ahh hell just say A. Next problem.
Validity is the aspect of the test that is about determining how whatever test you are doing mirrors the real-life experience, in this case of music listening. Audio DBTs are not perfectly mirroring the experience.
Psychologists and teachers know this. Look I get it - the current DBTs are "something" and you can argue it's better than doing sighted evaluations filled with all kinds of bias but the key importance is that a DBT can never prove that A=B - all they can do is say that the subject could not tell a difference between A and B better than chance in this particular test. So the fact that someone ran a test and no one could tell two amps apart does not then mean that no one can tell any two amps apart everywhere (ditto for cables/CD players/Streamers/tape decks etc)
On another forum there is someone who touts Benchmark because apparently, it's the best measuring amplifier in the history of the world - that very same guy would never be able to tell that amplifier apart from a $500 Rotel in a DBT because the distortion of the Rotel is so low already that no human could detect it from anything "lower" so why spend $3,000 on the Benchmark - all perfectly operating SS amps sound the same according to DBTs - indeed, one can buy a Rotel 1090 or that can output 1Kw at 1 ohm and run you $700 secondhand or any Bryston 3B which will hit higher watts than Benchmark and run you $500 and it may still have 10 years of warranty time on it - or buy a slew of class D amplifiers with big numbers and lower than the ear can detect distortion.
Anyway - the poster on the other board ended up buying a Sonic Frontiers tube preamp - another guy on another forum is "all about the measurements" and dumped his Benchmark for a Yamaha S2200 which he claims "sounds better" (warmer) These are ASR kind of people - the problem I have is that it's all about the measurements until they "like the sound of" something else better. Once you go down the "I like the sound of X better than Benchmark" you are saying that you are putting a "preference" for a lesser measuring amplifier over a better measuring amplifier and once you do that - then it's preference vs preference.
As an aside sir, he may design nice valve amps, but he needs to site that Rega deck better and lord knows if in that picture, the speakers are decoupled from the unit its sitting on, feeding back lovely (not) bass vibrations into the turntable. yes I know it's probably a staged pic to show the amp off and give some vibe on its size, but ignorant audiop-hiles will think that's an acceptable way to site and display their sound rig and believe me, it's not!!!Speaking of tube amps because tube amp is part of the solution in that video. As I see it, tube amps have their place among DIY enthusiasts who have technical knowledge and find it fun and satisfying to tinker with tube amp building projects.
Here an example. Horias2000 got this tube amp together. Measures, compared to other tube amps, really well. A really nice build overall.
A lot of technical design discussions with SIY in that thread (SIY is undeniably knowledgeable regarding tube amps).
SIY with this sentence describes it well:
You're making me itch to get my next tube amp built.
Horias2000 DIY tube amp:
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Building a valve amplifier
I managed to perform a quick measurement with the feedback closed. Below you can see the frequency response (log frequency scale). I'm also inserting the openloop response with log frequency scale, just for reference. And I'm attaching the square wave response for 1kHz, 500Hz and 100Hz...audiosciencereview.com
Buying commercial tube amps, on the other hand, I am extremely doubtful about. Often very expensive and that combined with often rather lousy performance and low power is not a winning combination in my eyes.
I think it's the psychology involved. I can enjoy a record playing session via a really decent player/pickup (haven't done so for a very long time though) where I and others accept the flaws, surface noise at times and so on, but you see, thirty five years back I tried hard to cobble vinyl players together than came as close as possible to the analogue master copies I had and obviously digital as in red-book CD, using a range of discs and pressings. The trouble for me has always been that as soon as I put on a CD, the turntable was turned off and forgotten for the rest of the session - and I had and used some bl;oody good vinyl sources too after leaving the LP12 behind! Way off topic again - sorryYes it’s a wonder vinyl sounds as good as it does, worth remembering that any amount of distortion can be added in the creation of a file but I personally do not want added distortion in its reproduction.
Keith
So can a Hacker, B&O or Roberts vintage FM portable radio if heard at lowish volumes in isolation from a proper sound system with more extended responseIt can sound good though, can’t it
“But my turntable, despite the inherent flaws, can sound better to my ear than my streamer. Sometimes I like it better.”But okay then you can imagine that vinyl sounds better than high-quality streamed music, but that's another matter (if we assume equivalent quality of the music recordings when comparing).
Okay, so speakers are a totally unrelated business!They are primarily an amplifier manufacturer which can be seen in their Factory tour video -- then a CD player/Transport DAC maker - which are made in a second plant in Europe (Lithuania I think) - then the speakers and turntables are made at a very tiny operation in a Stream Powered Plant in Austria.
This short video shows the relatively tiny speaker operation compared to their amplifier plant - AN took over the old B&W speaker plant when AN expanded.
I can't speak to Quintard's recordings as I have not heard them - I have heard Steve Hoffman's recordings which have been excellent and well-reviewed and I have a recording from Gearbox Records which also sounds very good.