This audio cable business is getting out of hand...

[Sal1950]

I am trying to compare it to the one @MC_RME suggested. Outside of that, it is probably best to get longer lengths to test as I doubt in this one-foot size the differences will be material.

I really like to see the BJC LC-1 coax thrown into to mix for comparison to the Mogami's. A ASR worlds best unbalanced innerconnect shootout. LOL
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/LC1-design-notes.htm

 

[solderdude]

I thought this test was conclusive enough ?
Maybe if it was it wasn't 26 pages long though.
Well.. I did the same test and for me Ethan's test is conclusive enough.

One could easily null using a sound card as well (left on input, right on output) but most likely channel differences and delay is bigger than the actual differences in a cable.

 

[MC_RME]

Single end shield grounding of unbalanced cables aligns with what I read about minimizing noise recently while building a DIY amp. One example here from a DIY Audio thread. It refers to grounding the 2534 Mogami star/quad cable that is the same one used in the World's Best Cable Mogami RCA option on Amazon). The poster has written white papers on the topic but that does not mean he is correct.

So, is single ended shield grounding fake science...or is it simply unnecessary in short runs for home use, in the same way balanced cables might be.

Single ended shield is not there to suppress ground connection problems, like my example of noise current flowing. It will flow either way and become audible (as I was able to proof with Armir's cable). Single ended shields against high frequency, external radiation (not magnetic fields like the StarQuad), which in real-world is no issue when the cable is that short. Balanced cables make sense even in short lengths as they usually prevent ground loop problems between separate devices, including the noise current I referred to.

 

[amirm]

Yes, that is the one I bought, but in 30 cm (1 ft) and 1 m (3.3 ft) length. You linked to a 0.5 ft long.

Oh no, I thought I was ordering the 1 foot. Oh well.

 

[Sal1950]

Sooner or later stray visitors are going to realize you can't come here and post about anything that flies in the face of ASR purism without a bunch of educated guys acting like a group of kids circling them on the ASR playground and bullying them while feeling extra good for a little while about their righteousness. That's certainly not saying you're wrong. It's saying for some of us that stepping into a thread about audio cables is guaranteed to be a path that needs wading boots.

Ya ever stopped by any one of a dozen or more subjective sites and posted anything in the way of a counterpoint of the objective nature? You get a swarm of true believers jumping on you like you swatted a hornets nest. Do it more than a couple times and you'll probably be banned as a heretic. ASR is a model of true tolerance in comparison.
I guarantee.

 

[amirm]

I really like to see the BJC LC-1 coax thrown into to mix for comparison to the Mogami's. A ASR worlds best unbalanced innerconnect shootout. LOL
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/LC1-design-notes.htm

How flexible is it? One of the key metrics in a short RCA cable is its bend radius and suppleness. Otherwise it will drag these little desktop products with it.

 

[Sal1950]

How flexible is it? .

Not very I don't believe. Another drawback are the long Taversoe RCA plugs increasing the minimun bend radius.
I guess I missed those were key metrics, thought we were just interested in high quality cabling.

 

[amirm]

I guess I missed those were key metrics, thought we were just interested in high quality cabling.

Well, the main topic was the ridiculous notice for burn-in.

 

[MC_RME]

How flexible is it? One of the key metrics in a short RCA cable is its bend radius and suppleness. Otherwise it will drag these little desktop products with it.

Nice description/text in that link. The cable is 7.7 mm in diameter compared to 4.8 mm of the 2964, so it is most probably not that flexible. But they used the space to add more copper for the shield, resulting in even lower resistance (half of the 2964 one if I compared the foot values correctly).

 

[Sal1950]

Just as an FYI, BJC offers Belden 1505F and 1694A and a variety of Canare wire, more
Interesting one stop for custom built quality cable. Poking around they have more than I was aware of.
Not necessarily the cheapest but their CS has been stellar IME.

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/index.htm
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm

 

[restorer-john]

How flexible is it? One of the key metrics in a short RCA cable is its bend radius and suppleness. Otherwise it will drag these little desktop products with it.

All you need is one of these Aldi doorstoppers to put on top! Solid stainless with decoupling rubber base and anti-resonance ring. They are heavy enough to stop those little toy DACs from slipping off the back of your shelf and disappearing into the cable abyss behind your rack.

And yes, people have been using them as audiophile tweaks...

https://darko.audio/2018/12/doorstop-me-if-you-think-youve-heard-this-one-before/

 

[solderdude]

There's a neat idea for @amirm to test when he has nothing else to measure (unlikely )

Grab the modi 3 for instance, measure it stock, measure it while it has a heavy weight on it and measure it while tapping on the device or the device on the table during the test and see IF indeed the measurements (jitter ?) change.
Proof delivered ... or debunked.
No need to do this with tube equipment, we all know how that will end.

 

[mansr]

OK, I ordered the Mogami version. It better not come with a burn-in note!!!

Is that like a burn notice for audiophiles?

 

[GGroch]

All you need is one of these Aldi doorstoppers to put on top! Solid stainless with decoupling rubber base and anti-resonance ring........

View attachment 27159

Great suggestion, JDS should provide black ones as a $30 upgrade option for the flyweight Atom).

However this makes the testing far more complex as one must then also factor the burn in time of the Aldi stoppers.

 

[GGroch]

Single ended shield is not there to suppress ground connection problems, like my example of noise current flowing. It will flow either way and become audible (as I was able to proof with Armir's cable). Single ended shields against high frequency, external radiation.....

Thank you, that makes sense.
I understand the shield's purpose is to reduce RF noise, not ground loops. I was confused because one of Bruce Heran's articles on shielding advises against connecting these RF shields at both ends on signal cables within a chassis because it creates additional grounding paths for the signal that can cause ground loops. I thought that this may also be the case when used between chassis on single ended cables.

 

[VintageFlanker]

OK, I ordered the Mogami version. It better not come with a burn-in note!!!

@amirm ... I'm afraid it will.

Quote from the top com on the WBC Mogami page:

Now I know why many studio engineers use these. Hooked it up to my CD player and sounded great. But there is a note that came with them saying there is a 175 hour "burn-in", so I'm sure they will only sound better as they reach that point.

If he says he's sure...

https://www.amazon.com/Foot-Directional-High-Definition-Interconnect-Connectors/dp/B01ALHY04I

 

[hetzer]

That would include Einstein and all those who subscribe to the vigorous proof afforded to the Theory of General Relativity as too the scientists over at Cern working on the LHC ??? Quantum Theory is relavistic too if you look at it from the angle of the uncertainty (levels) of particles in the quantum realm.

I am not saying relativism in the context of science. I am saying about philosophical relativism of audiophiles. Audio subjectivists usually rely on their own experience and don't accept scientific knowledge. I am not an uneducated guy who don't even know the Theory of General Relativity. Next time please read the context too.

 

[FrantzM]

There's a neat idea for @amirm to test when he has nothing else to measure (unlikely )

Grab the modi 3 for instance, measure it stock, measure it while it has a heavy weight on it and measure it while tapping on the device or the device on the table during the test and see IF indeed the measurements (jitter ?) change.
Proof delivered ... or debunked.
No need to do this with tube equipment, we all know how that will end.

Here is the problem with something as benign-looking as this: Regardless of how thorough one is in measurements there will be litle blips that will show up in the measurements... For example, one sample of speaker will show 0.000018 Ohms of resistance ,, the other 0.000014 .. From the standpoint of those-who-want-to-believe, this is proof enough that the cables are different therefore sound different ..It doesn't matter that would translate into a difference of 0.0000004 Ohms ... The geometry of the cable and their metallurgy will explain the dark background and the luminous instrument linearity since one of the cables is made of OFC with gold-plated shield, it will sound warm and sweet and provide precise and rich ( Gold after all ) musicality and PrATT ..
Best we can do is continue to measure, stick to science and provide to the masses and fellow ASRians means to make them system better. A wiki on ways to integrate subs for example... step by step ignoramus-style for example.. would be quite useful .. How to measures, trick to make taking measurements easier (not ... most of the time) ..etc.. Software, tools .. How-to's, debate on the perception of sounds.. thresholds of audibility .. gear of distinction .. etc .... Right now .. Manufacturers take ASR more seriously than most other sites .. Witness Schiit suddenly becoming a fan of the AP-555X ... and posting measurements ... Being recommended by ASR is a badge of honor and quality ...the Public is taking notice of the high level of the of the discussions here ...

Enjoy the Music.

 

[GrimSurfer]

My advice is to stay away from debates on perception.

Measure performance and determine whether that performance is audible according to the findings of legitimate, respected, and peer reviewed sources.

If people want to argue about performance, they can dissect Amir's test methodology. If they dispute audibility judgments under accepted scientific standards, they can take it up with the authorities responsible for those standards.

 

[solderdude]

Here is the problem with something as benign-looking as this: Regardless of how thorough one is in measurements there will be litle blips that will show up in the measurements...

In general I agree that measurements systems like Amir has one can see at levels where most cannot 'see' (measure) and people have a tendency to misinterpret plots (by lack of knowledge or on purpose) which is a possible danger when doing tests like these.

In case of the cable tests differences will be clear above certain frequencies. 'artifacts', measurement error, interference from external origin and noise floors can easily be misinterpreted for actual differences.
For this one also needs a thorough analysis of the measured data.