Schiit Magni Unity with onboard DAC

[amirm]

As I stated privately to @JK47, I don't have interest in meeting Marv. Nor am I motived to go through any effort on the basis of a self-claimed passing of a test. If they want to be taken seriously, they should write a report and as @solderdude says, provide some evidence of authenticity. The next step after that would be for us to try to replicate the test which we can do. If we also hear a difference then we can investigate it ourselves. No reason to go and meet them without this. Our time and effort is not free.

FYI, another SBAF member claimed passing a blind test using the same comparator which was not believable. We need proof that there are no "tells" in that switcher. Long time ago Boston Audio Society set up a blind test only to have witnesses hear differences in relay click sound when it was selecting A instead of B for example. See: https://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm

"I expressed my desire to try the test, and Remington went to cue up the record again, but I requested to be allowed to undertake the test with no signal passing though the system. Before realizing the import of what he was saying, Vanderkooy interjected: "Ah! You're going to listen to the sound of the relays." Yes, there is indeed a slight audible difference between the acoustic "click" made when the "A" and "B" relays pull in. This is due to the unavoidable differences in the mounting positions of the relay on the A/B/X box chassis and, although slight, it can be heard if one listens for it. I replied that I was going to listen to the difference in background hiss, and the subsequent series of blind trials showed conclusively that the two signal paths could be reliably distinguished on this basis alone."

As @solderdude says, such blind tests are mostly good to educate oneself. Trying to provide it as proof requires a lot more work.

 

[amirm]

Understood, it's not a dare though. It's a friendly offer.

It is? How come you post my private communication with you there with this comment? "Also a PM to the head honcho herself, Obviously scared."

Do any of you have use for proper manners?

But no, I am not scared of anything. The fact that someone can hear differences between whatever he tested is not threatening to me. The reason I don't want to engage is what I just explained: they need to first invest in doing proper test and then we can take the next step to validate. I am busy and don't have time to go and chase people with their claims of this and that.

 

[JK47]

It is? How come you post my private communication with you there with this comment? "Also a PM to the head honcho herself, Obviously scared."

Do any of you have use for proper manners?

But no, I am not scared of anything. The fact that someone can hear differences between whatever he tested is not threatening to me. The reason I don't want to engage is what I just explained: they need to first invest in doing proper test and then we can take the next step to validate. I am busy and don't have time to go and chase people with their claims of this and that.

I found your PM response rude. Since you're so busy, what if we came to you with the test?

 

[ButtUglyMartian]

Found this thread via DDG and I have to say, the drama? Love it. I'm glad you guys are passionate about audio so I can eventually benefit from the scraps of your knowledge that eventually reach me. But since I'm here, does anyone have personal experience with the new Magni, DAC included?

Edit: I ask because as a casual pleb I wasn't blown away by the Magni 3(?)/Modi Multibit combo. It was fine but like giving a Lambo to someone who really only cares about commuting. And I found out while selling that combo that Schiit makes way too many revisions and delineates them poorly.

 

[oleg87]

Found this thread via DDG and I have to say, the drama? Love it. I'm glad you guys are passionate about audio so I can eventually benefit from the scraps of your knowledge that eventually reach me. But since I'm here, does anyone have personal experience with the new Magni, DAC included?

Edit: I ask because as a casual pleb I wasn't blown away by the Magni+/Modi Multibit combo. It was fine but like giving a Lambo to someone who really only cares about commuting. And I found out while selling that combo that Schiit makes way too many revisions and delineates them poorly.

It came out two days ago. I don’t think most people would have even received theirs in the mail yet.

 

[ButtUglyMartian]

It came out two days ago. I don’t think most people would have even received theirs in the mail yet.

Wow, then they're so bad at indicating revisions/new products that I didn't even notice the page change. Guess I'll have to wait then, huh?

Edit: Not sure what the rules are here regarding linking, but a couple of users in other forums received theirs days ago. Unfortunately only one of them had anything to say and it was subjective, so I doubt you guys would care.

 

[Joe Smith]

I'll be surprised if this combo unit doesn't ultimately test well and sound pretty good, as Schiit seems to keep making incremental changes to their entry-level stuff. But I expect the main appeal will be to those who want one solid/good-looking box on a desktop instead of a stack. As my headphone listening is on the decline as I prepare to retire, I'm content to keep using my current Magni 3 for a while.

 

[solderdude]

Understood, it's not a dare though. It's a friendly offer.

Looking at the thread at SBAF it is not the friendly offer you wanted it to be. It ends up framing ASR.

I'm quite certain the Magni Unity would measure quite well (it has been measured on AP555X) and is well below any audibility thresholds.
The price is right as well. Great affordable product I am sure.
There seems to be nothing wrong with the amp, also there is no indication (and not enough measurements) to indicate it can sound different and above all WHY this should be the case.

I am sure I can do a botched blind test, even with the ABX box Marv has. That would be very easy.
It would also be very easy to draw fictive test results on a piece of paper. Not that I believe this IS the case.

Also when I throw a coin or dice 8 times in a row I can have the good fortune to predict the outcome correctly 7 out of 8 times.

I know Marv is not interested in proving anything to Amir nor ASR members nor to the world.

What should be done (but probably never will be) is video document (in one run, not edited) the entire process. Meaning the control measurements (level matching under actual load), the setup should be shown and clearly in view, the test should be done and the results of the testing should be clearly visible. At least 16 'possible switches' should be done in one go. The responses should be on the video. There should be a complete test report of both DUTs as well. The actual ones used not those of other devices.

Then that has to be evaluated and when there is indeed an audible difference that cannot be explained by measurements you might get Amir's attention.
Its not moving goal posts it is called casting reasonable doubt to 'the deaf and stupid ASR members'. Once that is done I am sure this would get things moving.

When you can find a person in the Netherlands who can actually do the same (hear differences between the new Magni and a comparable transparent amp) I will be glad to witness/administer a controlled blind test myself (20 'switches') and get to the bottom of the how and why as I would be very interested in the last part... the how and why.

100% certain this will never happen (a 'better hearing' Dutch person contacting me owning a new Magni and other 'transparent' amp) willing to let me check if he can also hear differences under controlled conditions. As said... it is important to keep the 'magic' alive. The whole high-end audio circuit is based on that.
If one (or more) Dutch individuals that are confident enough and contacts me (easy to do) I will treat them kindly and with great interest.
The results will be made public, regardless of the outcome.

This is an open invitation to anyone and any responses will be in the open as well. I'm game.

 

[amirm]

Edit: Not sure what the rules are here regarding linking, but a couple of users in other forums received theirs days ago. Unfortunately only one of them had anything to say and it was subjective, so I doubt you guys would care.

We have no admonishments against posting links by non-commercial members.

 

[amirm]

I found your PM response rude. Since you're so busy, what if we came to you with the test?

Come to me with what? Don't you think you should verify what Marv is claiming before schlepping up here? Go and witness the test with him. Record everything. Make sure the ABX box is outside of his view and listening range. Verify that levels are matched. Then run the test and report back. Maybe then we can convince ourselves you care about doing proper testing.

 

[Matias]

This measures pretty good too. Analog input on top, digital board below.

 

[JK47]

Come to me with what? Don't you think you should verify what Marv is claiming before schlepping up here? Go and witness the test with him. Record everything. Make sure the ABX box is outside of his view and listening range. Verify that levels are matched. Then run the test and report back. Maybe then we can convince ourselves you care about doing proper testin

Why not have someone from here watch it live, perhaps at a large meet (CanJam, audio show, etc) that they may already be attending. There could be a quiet private room that your referee could verify was free from any form of cheating, and the verification could take place.

Or, just make another excuse...

 

[solderdude]

The witness needs to have full understanding of this type of testing and access to good enough test equipment to verify proper operation of both devices under test.
An audio show is NOT suited for this (as is Marv's opinion as well).
Also you will need statistical relevant attempts.

A badly performed blind test is not a blind test but as bad as a sighted test.

 

[JK47]

The witness needs to have full understanding of this type of testing and access to good enough test equipment to verify proper operation of both devices under test.
An audio show is NOT suited for this (as is Marv's opinion as well).
Also you will need statistical relevant attempts.

A badly performed blind test is not a blind test but as bad as a sighted test.

That is why I suggested a quiet, private room. Quite easy to rent a hotel room at a show, I'll pay for the room out of my pocket.

 

[solderdude]

That is why I suggested a quiet, private room. Quite easy to rent a hotel room at a show, I'll pay for the room out of my pocket.

You'll have to understand that amps like this, according to the measurements, will output the exact same electrical voltage waveform as say the L30.
This is what the measurements show, it is what science predicts.
When you feed a headphone with the exact same signal that has not undergone any changes in any way in amplitude response, in output current, in phase response, in frequency range, in added distortion (IM + HD) then the headphone will react exactly the same and thus cannot sound different.

If one thinks it can it has to be shown without doubt. This is not the case... yet.. in any case. More irrefutable proof is needed to get Amir on board.

We know that tonal balance is the most important aspect. This is NOT changed within and well outside the frequency range so the sound cannot change.
Distortion below -70dB is inaudible (of course Rob Watts claims -350dB is audible ) so that also cannot change the sound.
Then we have the output resistance which is low enough not to be audible.
Then we have current limits that are never reached so that also can not change the sound.
There are no phase shifts inside the audible band either so all aspects that have anything to do with signal fidelity are well below any audible differences.

Combine that with audibility studies, self education with countless audibility tests, current knowledge of electronics and acoustics, papers that have not been disputed and have been verified by others, tons of experience with well performed blind tests, it does not make any sense that there CAN be audible difference.
This means that in order to get people like Amir interested you would have to come with compelling evidence.
I set the bar a little lower and would be interested in witnessing a test IF I have full control over such a test with the proper test equipment.. just because even after 30 years I am still interested to finally meet someone that can actually do this. I met plenty that claimed this, were tested, failed but have not changed their song.

I hope to one day meet someone that actually can ace such a test as that person would be key to bridge the gap and get electronic engineers interested.

Amir probably also never met anyone that can do this (scientifically controlled testing) tell 2 devices apart that measure so similarly (under actual loads) that they are considered 'transparent' so do not change anything, yet is 'quickly' or 'easy' to do.

So some proof has to be presented first before Amir will spend valuable time on this. So far the 'proof' is suspect to say the least. Lots of question marks.
It has nothing to do with being 'scared' or 'changing goal posts' but is the request for more solid evidence.

 

[JK47]

I hope to one day meet someone that actually can ace such a test as that person would be key to bridge the gap and get electronic engineers interested

Hard to meet someone if you refuse to do so.

So some proof has to be presented first before Amir will spend valuable time on this. So far the 'proof' is suspect to say the least. Lots of question marks.
It has nothing to do with being 'scared' or 'changing goal posts' but is the request for more solid evidence.

Amir doesn't have to be there, just send a trusted lackey to verify the test, quite simple really.

 

[solderdude]

Hard to meet someone if you refuse to do so.

It may depend on how one approaches Amir and if they are willing to put in a little more effort in showing exactly what has been done.
You have to realize that Amir knows that what is claimed is highly unlikely. To get him on board requires winning (earning) his trust in the fact that the blind test is done properly.
You guys are still very far removed from that point.

Amir doesn't have to be there, just send a trusted lackey to verify the test, quite simple really.

The problem is to get someone there that is familiar with these kinds of tests and what's involved.
Just sending 'someone' to witness who is not fully versed on the method and cannot test the gear under test is something Amir is not going to take lightly.

 

[JK47]

To get him on board requires winning (earning) his trust in the fact that the blind test is done properly.

You're kidding right?

Just sending 'someone' to witness who is not fully versed on the method and cannot test the gear under test is something Amir is not going to take lightly.

Right, right...

 

[solderdude]

You're kidding right?

Nope, 'fraid not.

 

[JK47]

Nope, 'fraid not.

You make it sound like I'm a peasant compared to Amir.