How Deep Must the Bass Be?

[evalrat]

I agree things are tricky.

But I submit full range towers are way more difficult to integrate into the vast majority of environments unless you have a palatial, dedicated, large room.

My expensive, beloved towers were downright horrible when I downsized my environment. Had zero to do with how low they reached, had everything to do with the fact they were hard.to control and created an undefined and convoluted picture... and sure, I could have helped them out with corrections and taking.bass away from them... but then what would be the point?

That is more or less what I mean. A good 30-40 Hz plus is vastly preferable to untidy very lows. I really don't think ever having missed anything below 30Hz on recorded music or even below 40 Hz. Digital music of course has no lower limits and present day recordings contain vastly more bass then those from the age of vinyl so your need to be able to deliver lots of bass without straining. As for a balanced low frequency range one might listen to Mistki's Crack Baby.

If all the bass notes sound more or less equally loud at a reasonable sound level one can enjoy a good bass response. But of course there's no sound below 30Hz here.

 

[Chrispy]

And yes, the subtle background goes quite low.

Or for something a bit more radical...

Well neither of those I'd call radically different from other classical music....and won't be changing my mind about it in any case....and that needle drop is so dirty it's unlistenable....

 

[Cbdb2]

Don't know you'll get an exact number here. Our threshold for 0 phons is about 72 db SPL at 20 hz, 60 db SPL at 30 hz, and 50 db SPL at 40 hz.

For music, there is very little to be gained below 40 hz. But for instance 80 hz the threshold is 30 db SPL. So 2nd harmonic distortion of 10% would be heard about as well as the 40 hz fundamental.

The low B on a 5 string bass is 31hz. There's 5 notes with fundamentals below the E at 41hz. So any 4 string bass with drop tuning ( most grunge) will be effected.

 

[Cbdb2]

Ist not even 20 - 20kHz, because here the listeners age comes into play. A person in his mid 40's might be able to hear a (statistical) max. of around 13 kHz (?). TThere is even a formular to calculate the (statisticla relevant) upper limit of ones hearing. Thus the upper octave is not available - more or less - by everyone. I usually smile, when people proclaim, that a speaker, amp or even cable is not producing 20 kHz straight (and flat) as a ruler, because this might be for many just a theoretical thing...
Most measuring mikes have problems recording straight up to 20 kHz (room acoustics not even considered), whilst recording the lowest octave with minimal deviation is not hindered by this

Bruel and Kjaer make mics that are flat (+/_ 2db) from 6hz to 140khz.

https://www.bksv.com/-/media/literature/Product-Data/bp2225.ashx

 

[F1308]

That's interesting, can we hear examples of your music somewhere on the net?

I sometimes post songs in...

https://forums.rolandclan.com/index.php

Fantom forum.

But, sadly, it looks the service is down now (503)

FGM is the user I use there...Around 15 songs already posted, mp3.

 

[F1308]

Why do subwoofers have better bass than large speakers?

dts demo cd disc goes well below 20Hz for music effects and digital dts surround , goes extremely dynamic below 20Hz use with caution ! titanic dts cd music is also wow

www.audiosciencereview.com

I measured 10 subwoofers.

Is the data measured using CTA-2010-A or CTA-2010-B standard? If it's CTA-2010-A, then i can add it onto my main spreadsheet, since all of my data comes from -A standard measurements. If it's CTA-2010-B, then i need to create a 2nd spreadsheet, and add your data there, since -A standard is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Philbo King]

So is this making the point that the 20Hz fundamental is irrelevant, since the harmonics are what matter?

For piano, voice and most other instruments, yes. A pipe organ puts out sine waves (very low amplitude harmonics). There are also impulse sounds like taiko drums, kick drums, electronica bass drum synths that have appreciable energy below 25 Hz.

 

[waynel]

I think that flat in-room to 16Hz should be sufficient for music. Subs help even out the bass, deal with SBIR, and are not expensive compared to top full range speakers, so why not go for 16Hz ?

 

[Galliardist]

For piano, voice and most other instruments, yes. A pipe organ puts out sine waves (very low amplitude harmonics). There are also impulse sounds like taiko drums, kick drums, electronica bass drum synths that have appreciable energy below 25 Hz.

Pipe organs... as far as I'm aware only one voice in the lower registers doesn't put out audible harmonics, and even then it's usually doubled with another voice that does have them.

I don't know if we have a resident organist on the forum that could clear up this matter properly.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Bruel and Kjaer make mics that are flat (+/_ 2db) from 6hz to 140khz.

https://www.bksv.com/-/media/literature/Product-Data/bp2225.ashx

I suspect you have to search for quite some time before locating one of those in a studio.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

I suspect you have to search for quite some time before locating one of those in a studio.

Puh!
They are very common.
Ask anyone from Vulcan academy of music, they'd tell you.

 

[computer-audiophile]

For piano, voice and most other instruments, yes. A pipe organ puts out sine waves (very low amplitude harmonics). There are also impulse sounds like taiko drums, kick drums, electronica bass drum synths that have appreciable energy below 25 Hz.

It's a funny idea to want to play recordings of taiko drums at home in all their dynamic beauty and loudness of the real thing.

 

[Frank Dernie]

It's a funny idea to want to play recordings of taiko drums at home in all their dynamic beauty and loudness of the real thing.

There has never been a concert anywhere near me to listen live, so the alternative is to never listen

 

[Ken Tajalli]

There has never been a concert anywhere near me to listen live, so the alternative is to never listen

So it's a case of all or nothing?!
Can you imagine how much gets lost from live venue experience to home speakers?
Its more of a diminishing returns scenario, as others have tried to point to.
Are those bottom few Hz, worth the effort and the cost?
Will it diminish the music, if you have to pay thousands, for larger speakers, deal with room acoustics, emply few hundred extra watts, to get, at best a better sensation in your belly?
If it does, good luck to you, you chase that. But I believe the majority won't think so.
For me, I can enjoy music out of my mobile phone tiny speaker, my Audeze headphones and my Hugo2 , and my home setup system with Sonus Faber speakers, Meridian amp etc.
Music is music, and i love it.
I am also a regular classical concer goer, to some of the famous venues here in London.

 

[Frank Dernie]

So it's a case of all or nothing?!
Can you imagine how much gets lost from live venue experience to home speakers?
Its more of a diminishing returns scenario, as others have tried to point to.
Are those bottom few Hz, worth the effort and the cost?
Will it diminish the music, if you have to pay thousands, for larger speakers, deal with room acoustics, emply few hundred extra watts, to get, at best a better sensation in your belly?
If it does, good luck to you, you chase that. But I believe the majority won't think so.

Whatever.
I have had speakers and amp power that can do it pretty well for 40 years and a dedicated large room for over 25 years so I can get a pretty close approximation to live sound here.
I do go to plenty of live concerts too, my wife is a professional musician, though not as often as I used to, regrettably.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Whatever.
I have had speakers and amp power that can do it pretty well for 40 years and a dedicated large room for over 25 years so I can get a pretty close approximation to live sound here.
I do go to plenty of live concerts too, my wife is a professional musician, though not as often as I used to, regrettably.

Wonderful.
You are 73, I am 10 years your junior and have never been near a formula one car racing .
Is it too much to suspect that in our young age! and what we have put our auditory systems through (also a Rock concert goer), that our hearing at frequency extremes may be, possibly , not what it used to be?
I have accepted that, don't know about you.

 

[Axo1989]

Maybe language barrier then, but lots of music have 30Hz content and even lower. It's silly to call it as some "sound effect" when it's clearly a part of the music (and not say some unintended microphone rumble). Whether 30Hz or 15kHz is "needed" for enjoyment, it's a completely personal issue.

Less a language barrier, more a generation gap I think.

 

[computer-audiophile]

There has never been a concert anywhere near me to listen live, so the alternative is to never listen

Good point! I understand that. But it's also not a complete contradiction to my thought. Normally you will listen to taiko drums at home with a reduced volume and bass depth so that it is still pleasant. Big taiko drums were also used in ancient Japan to frighten the enemy in battle. Usually they are not played in a small room but outdoors.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Wonderful.
You are 73, I am 10 years your junior and have never been near a formula one car racing .
Is it too much to suspect that in our young age! and what we have put our auditory systems through (also a Rock concert goer), that our hearing at frequency extremes may be, possibly , not what it used to be?
I have accepted that, don't know about you.

Obviously!

I have had my hearing checked when my wife started going deaf. It is a tragedy for her since she is a musician and a shock for me being better than average for my age given the environment I have worked in.

I suspect the sound of a Steinway Model B may be louder averaged over time for a frequently practicing player than an occasional peak of F1 engine as it blasts by a person with ear defenders on at over 100mph once every 1 ½ minutes or so 16 weekends a year???

Anyway I listen to live music, and always have, with the ears I have at any particular age so any comparison between live and reproduced is done in a valid sense. I certainly would not be able to discern any difference between reproduction at 12kHz but luckily music contains almost none so that isn’t a concern.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Good point! I understand that. But it's also not a complete contradiction to my thought. Normally you will listen to taiko drums at home with a reduced volume and bass depth so that it is still pleasant. Big taiko drums were also used in ancient Japan to frighten the enemy in battle. Usually they are not played in a small room but outdoors.

Whilst I have never been to a local concert I was at a sponsorship event once in Japan where there was a demonstration of these drums, including the big one.
We were indeed outside and whilst I didn’t have a sound meter with me I don’t think, at the distance we were listening, they were any louder than I can get in my music room.

The dynamic range of recordings is usually the problem, no recording distributor in their right mind would try to sell a recoring of wide dynamic range music with its full dynamic range preserved since 99% of the people buying it wouldn’t be able to replay it.

There are a few “audiophile” recordings demonstrating the dynamic range of real life but very few and usually just lollipops.