Recommendations needed for a replacement for a miniDSP active crossover

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

I'm trying to find a calculator for such a thing. I am not at all confident I could solve for Q in that equation but thank you for the formula.

If JRiver needs S and you know Q from your miniDSP, then you just plug the value of Q into the equation. On the other hand, I have no idea what d is.

 

[radix]

If JRiver needs S and you know Q from your miniDSP, then you just plug the value of Q into the equation. On the other hand, I have no idea what d is.

d is the gain.

See the link in #39

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

d is the gain.

See the link in #39

Got it, thanks.

 

[mccarty350]

Thanks for the group effort. I may just buy EKIO and be done with it...I love the demo version.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

Not hard to setup, DSP UI not as friendly as some others. I wrote https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,129609.0.html to make this sort of thing easier but your setup is fairly simple so easy enough to do in jriver alone. If you get something like a Motu interface then you can handle the analogue input for a turntable as well.

If your link makes things easier, then I'm definitely going to struggle with JRiver's UI. I've spent a bit of time on Motu's website and have to say that I don't really see where one would fit in. It would seem to be overkill for the purposes of just adding a turntable.

 

[3ll3d00d]

Jriver uses nonstandard Q value calculations which was one of the impediments to generating a crossover directly in the Jriver parametric EQ module.

This is no longer true, it was fixed in mc29 (current is mc31 so that's about 2 years ago now). The mentioned problem was also specific to shelf filters so didn't affect peaking filters

The app I linked to does this conversion automatically if you do use an older version though.

beqdesigner: a jriver dsp simulator and editor

beqdesigner: a jriver dsp simulator and editor

yabb.jriver.com

 

[3ll3d00d]

If your link makes things easier, then I'm definitely going to struggle with JRiver's UI. I've spent a bit of time on Motu's website and have to say that I don't really see where one would fit in. It would seem to be overkill for the purposes of just adding a turntable.

If you want a turntable, you need some device with an analogue input.

Jriver has a 30 day free trial, you would likely be better off just trying it rather than talking about it.

It's unclear what about the helper app makes it harder but many DSP apps that have richer feature says have similar UIs so you may find most DSP apps hard to use. Minidsp UI is v simple and does what you need so from a DSP point of view so sticking with such a device might be a good idea.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

If you want a turntable, you need some device with an analogue input.

Jriver has a 30 day free trial, you would likely be better off just trying it rather than talking about it.

It's unclear what about the helper app makes it harder but many DSP apps that have richer feature says have similar UIs so you may find most DSP apps hard to use. Minidsp UI is v simple and does what you need so from a DSP point of view so sticking with such a device might be a good idea.

 

[Keith_W]

It would seem to me that the easiest thing would be to buy another MiniDSP. But it seems as if you have been burnt and don't want to repeat your experience. I can understand that, but I also know a lot of people with MiniDSP and I have not heard any complaints of reliability.

If you want to stick with hardware convolution, an alternative is DEQX. It is similar to MiniDSP, it has a microphone input, options for multiple outputs, built-in DAC and ADC, and software. The difference is that DEQX software is proprietary (MiniDSP uses Dirac) and it costs quite a bit more than the MiniDSP. I don't know the exact pricing, but I am guessing around USD$3-4k based on pricing of older models. I did own a DEQX HDP-3, so I am familiar with how they work. If you care about build and appearance, I think the DEQX processors look miles better than MiniDSP which are quite functional in their stamped metal cases ... IMO.

Apart from that, there are other very small companies that offer hardware convolution engines. But I would not consider them because I don't want to entrust a complex hardware/software solution to a company where I have no faith in long term support.

Otherwise, as others have suggested, software based solutions are much better. The advantage is that they are modular. I use Acourate, but if the company ceases to exist I could choose from half a dozen other solutions. They are also more powerful, more feature rich, and more flexible. The disadvantage is the learning curve and the initial complexity in setting it up. I understand you are an "old hifi guy" with difficulty getting your TV to work (all of us sympathize, we have relatives like that or we are well on our way to becoming like that ourselves!). But it really is the best solution.

 

[mccarty350]

This is no longer true, it was fixed in mc29 (current is mc31 so that's about 2 years ago now). The mentioned problem was also specific to shelf filters so didn't affect peaking filters

The app I linked to does this conversion automatically if you do use an older version though.

beqdesigner: a jriver dsp simulator and editor

beqdesigner: a jriver dsp simulator and editor

yabb.jriver.com

Excellent news! I'm current on Jriver so if they've already corrected it I'll give it a shot again. I used beqdesigner when I made my first attempt on an older version of jriver to implement an LX521.4 crossover, I'll just go back to it. This isn't my first attempt doing this, I was relatively successful in implementing this in jriver using beq but at the time I was very concerned about the lack of veracity of Q - I wasn't aware that it had been resolved so THANK YOU.

 

[mccarty350]

It would seem to me that the easiest thing would be to buy another MiniDSP. But it seems as if you have been burnt and don't want to repeat your experience. I can understand that, but I also know a lot of people with MiniDSP and I have not heard any complaints of reliability.

If you want to stick with hardware convolution, an alternative is DEQX. It is similar to MiniDSP, it has a microphone input, options for multiple outputs, built-in DAC and ADC, and software. The difference is that DEQX software is proprietary (MiniDSP uses Dirac) and it costs quite a bit more than the MiniDSP. I don't know the exact pricing, but I am guessing around USD$3-4k based on pricing of older models. I did own a DEQX HDP-3, so I am familiar with how they work. If you care about build and appearance, I think the DEQX processors look miles better than MiniDSP which are quite functional in their stamped metal cases ... IMO.

Apart from that, there are other very small companies that offer hardware convolution engines. But I would not consider them because I don't want to entrust a complex hardware/software solution to a company where I have no faith in long term support.

Otherwise, as others have suggested, software based solutions are much better. The advantage is that they are modular. I use Acourate, but if the company ceases to exist I could choose from half a dozen other solutions. They are also more powerful, more feature rich, and more flexible. The disadvantage is the learning curve and the initial complexity in setting it up. I understand you are an "old hifi guy" with difficulty getting your TV to work (all of us sympathize, we have relatives like that or we are well on our way to becoming like that ourselves!). But it really is the best solution.

I'm in the same boat but instead I chose Audiolense's ecosystem. I am also concerned by the low quantity of updates and the fact that it's a one person development team and such but PC hardware is so much more powerful and so much cheaper than turnkey devices that I've moved that way myself. I've heard that Acourate is great as well and that there are pro's and cons to each platform.

 

[MAB]

If your link makes things easier, then I'm definitely going to struggle with JRiver's UI. I've spent a bit of time on Motu's website and have to say that I don't really see where one would fit in. It would seem to be overkill for the purposes of just adding a turntable.

MiniDSP doesn't seem to have a reliability problem based on my personal experience, but that is just me. Sorry that your experience is different. They also have provided me with fantastic customer service, the one unit I had years ago that was flakey was replaced no hassle. Don't know about your experience. Most recently I use a Flex Balanced, Flex Eight, and SHD all providing filters for active speakers, and have been using various MiniDSP for years since I replaced my old analog active crossovers with DSP. I also have an active system set up with a Software crossover in JRiver for a system I am building now, the idea is I want more DSP capabilities than MiniDSP, but it is less straightforward.

From a reliability standpoint, you are trading a single MiniDSP box for a computer + software + drivers + DAC. It would be OK if there were a range of multichannel DACs. Motu is great, and you can get customer service. The Okto is awesome, but customer service is unclear (to be clear, I have not heard a single complaint, and love this device). Topping is good specification, but zero customer service, and zero support from the company and a history of odd reliability and vanishing after-sales support for defective product.

The reality is your computer+software will effectively become the largest source of unreliability and flakiness. JRiver is great, but you do need to become an expert on it's DSP capabilities and interface (don't let the experts fool you into thinking you don't need to be an expert!) You will also likely spend some time cursing the gods after an OS update, etc. And, since I use my computer intensively for things outside of music listening (I test gear, make measurements, and do all sorts of wonky audio science with my computer...) I find I forget it is attached to a speaker with a amplifier driving an expensive compression driver for instance. So to do this right, you probably need to have a computer that is standalone, with some sort of anti-fumble-fingers measures and an onerous turn-on and shut-down procedure, and doesn't have you or family members playing Spotify, video games, surfing, etc. And by loading the crossover onto the computer, it becomes the central appliance in your system. There are lots of ways to slice this; RPi+CamiliaDSP, Windows,LINUX,Apple+DSP, all seem more flakey and potentially unreliable.

Lots of other issues, like hooking up external sources, all content must go through JRiver. I like JRiver, but I struggle to shoehorn all content through it. It does make me happy that my daughter plays her Spotify on my JBL M2.

I think you are trading your MiniDSP issue for a much bigger headache, increased opportunity for rel, complicated connectivity, and more hassle. I'd get a MiniDSP Flex.

 

[mccarty350]

MiniDSP doesn't seem to have a reliability problem based on my personal experience, but that is just me. Sorry that your experience is different. They also have provided me with fantastic customer service, the one unit I had years ago that was flakey was replaced no hassle. Don't know about your experience. Most recently I use a Flex Balanced, Flex Eight, and SHD all providing filters for active speakers, and have been using various MiniDSP for years since I replaced my old analog active crossovers with DSP. I also have an active system set up with a Software crossover in JRiver for a system I am building now, the idea is I want more DSP capabilities than MiniDSP, but it is less straightforward.

From a reliability standpoint, you are trading a single MiniDSP box for a computer + software + drivers + DAC. It would be OK if there were a range of multichannel DACs. Motu is great, and you can get customer service. The Okto is awesome, but customer service is unclear (to be clear, I have not heard a single complaint, and love this device). Topping is good specification, but zero customer service, and zero support from the company and a history of odd reliability and vanishing after-sales support for defective product.

The reality is your computer+software will effectively become the largest source of unreliability and flakiness. JRiver is great, but you do need to become an expert on it's DSP capabilities and interface (don't let the experts fool you into thinking you don't need to be an expert!) You will also likely spend some time cursing the gods after an OS update, etc. And, since I use my computer intensively for things outside of music listening (I test gear, make measurements, and do all sorts of wonky audio science with my computer...) I find I forget it is attached to a speaker with a amplifier driving an expensive compression driver for instance. So to do this right, you probably need to have a computer that is standalone, with some sort of anti-fumble-fingers measures and an onerous turn-on and shut-down procedure, and doesn't have you or family members playing Spotify, video games, surfing, etc. And by loading the crossover onto the computer, it becomes the central appliance in your system. There are lots of ways to slice this; RPi+CamiliaDSP, Windows,LINUX,Apple+DSP, all seem more flakey and potentially unreliable.

Lots of other issues, like hooking up external sources, all content must go through JRiver. I like JRiver, but I struggle to shoehorn all content through it. It does make me happy that my daughter plays her Spotify on my JBL M2.

I think you are trading your MiniDSP issue for a much bigger headache, increased opportunity for rel, complicated connectivity, and more hassle. I'd get a MiniDSP Flex.

I've had some weird volume flakes and issues with all 3 of mine but nothing that a power cycle doesn't take care of.

Certainly I will second the motion that moving to a computer + software etc. introduces way more complexity. IMO I prefer that way because I have total control and more flexibility and taps of modification but if you're not willing to totally dive in and if you don't have intermediate or higher level computer expertise in figuring out your own resolutions I would say far away. I have cursed the gods after many OS updates and driver updates for things in my audio chain. I couldn't phrase this better than MAB.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

It would seem to me that the easiest thing would be to buy another MiniDSP. But it seems as if you have been burnt and don't want to repeat your experience. I can understand that, but I also know a lot of people with MiniDSP and I have not heard any complaints of reliability.

If you want to stick with hardware convolution, an alternative is DEQX. It is similar to MiniDSP, it has a microphone input, options for multiple outputs, built-in DAC and ADC, and software. The difference is that DEQX software is proprietary (MiniDSP uses Dirac) and it costs quite a bit more than the MiniDSP. I don't know the exact pricing, but I am guessing around USD$3-4k based on pricing of older models. I did own a DEQX HDP-3, so I am familiar with how they work. If you care about build and appearance, I think the DEQX processors look miles better than MiniDSP which are quite functional in their stamped metal cases ... IMO.

Apart from that, there are other very small companies that offer hardware convolution engines. But I would not consider them because I don't want to entrust a complex hardware/software solution to a company where I have no faith in long term support.

Otherwise, as others have suggested, software based solutions are much better. The advantage is that they are modular. I use Acourate, but if the company ceases to exist I could choose from half a dozen other solutions. They are also more powerful, more feature rich, and more flexible. The disadvantage is the learning curve and the initial complexity in setting it up. I understand you are an "old hifi guy" with difficulty getting your TV to work (all of us sympathize, we have relatives like that or we are well on our way to becoming like that ourselves!). But it really is the best solution.

The new DEQX Pre-8 looks very nice, but I haven't seen a price for it yet. I'm guessing that it will be very expensive. It would take my Squeezebox digital input and my phono input, do speaker measurement, crossovers, EQ and room EQ, and pretty much everything else I could want for the next twenty years, except make me a coffee. If I thought it would have a life that long, it would have my attention.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

MiniDSP doesn't seem to have a reliability problem based on my personal experience, but that is just me. Sorry that your experience is different. They also have provided me with fantastic customer service, the one unit I had years ago that was flakey was replaced no hassle. Don't know about your experience. Most recently I use a Flex Balanced, Flex Eight, and SHD all providing filters for active speakers, and have been using various MiniDSP for years since I replaced my old analog active crossovers with DSP. I also have an active system set up with a Software crossover in JRiver for a system I am building now, the idea is I want more DSP capabilities than MiniDSP, but it is less straightforward.

From a reliability standpoint, you are trading a single MiniDSP box for a computer + software + drivers + DAC. It would be OK if there were a range of multichannel DACs. Motu is great, and you can get customer service. The Okto is awesome, but customer service is unclear (to be clear, I have not heard a single complaint, and love this device). Topping is good specification, but zero customer service, and zero support from the company and a history of odd reliability and vanishing after-sales support for defective product.

The reality is your computer+software will effectively become the largest source of unreliability and flakiness. JRiver is great, but you do need to become an expert on it's DSP capabilities and interface (don't let the experts fool you into thinking you don't need to be an expert!) You will also likely spend some time cursing the gods after an OS update, etc. And, since I use my computer intensively for things outside of music listening (I test gear, make measurements, and do all sorts of wonky audio science with my computer...) I find I forget it is attached to a speaker with a amplifier driving an expensive compression driver for instance. So to do this right, you probably need to have a computer that is standalone, with some sort of anti-fumble-fingers measures and an onerous turn-on and shut-down procedure, and doesn't have you or family members playing Spotify, video games, surfing, etc. And by loading the crossover onto the computer, it becomes the central appliance in your system. There are lots of ways to slice this; RPi+CamiliaDSP, Windows,LINUX,Apple+DSP, all seem more flakey and potentially unreliable.

Lots of other issues, like hooking up external sources, all content must go through JRiver. I like JRiver, but I struggle to shoehorn all content through it. It does make me happy that my daughter plays her Spotify on my JBL M2.

I think you are trading your MiniDSP issue for a much bigger headache, increased opportunity for rel, complicated connectivity, and more hassle. I'd get a MiniDSP Flex.

Lots of excellent points here. I'm not going to go into detail about my miniDSP, but I will say that the company has found an under-served niche and produced products that fit it well. It's usability is good and doesn't demand that I become an expert in anything. I found REW to be much more challenging and wouldn't want to take on anything that specialized in a hurry. If I remember correctly (it was five years ago), it took me several days to get my PC, REW, and miniDSP to produce any sound at all, and a couple of weeks before I felt that I was producing useful data.

I agree entirely with your "computer" comments. I've spent some time crawling around in JRiver's wiki and came to the conclusion that adding EKIO may have its advantages. Then I started following your line of thought about operating systems. I run an old, but very stable PC which I've updated several times over the years. It does everything I need and it does it quickly enough. I too use it for weird stuff using odd bits of software which would be a challenge to install and make work on a modern machine. I often wonder how long it will be before Microsoft's inescapable automatic updates do something catastrophic to me.

I also try to anticipate my next catastrophic drive failure. Again, MiniDSP handles this well: the plug-in is easy to install and configurations can be restored to it from the black box. I don't yet know whether software-based alternatives are as forgiving or whether a re-installation of the software will mean starting afresh with set-up and configuration. A small, separate computer dedicated to the task is quite attractive, especially if it can be left to run quietly in the background in a closet or storeroom.

I keep coming back to this: my Squeezebox Touch is a delightful, simple, and reliable piece of kit that does its job very well, so why would I replace it with a messy combination of software packages that are orders of magnitude more complex? All I need is a black box that I can plug it into that does its own job equally well. The choices appear to range from miniDSP to DEQX with a few pieces of pro gear somewhere in between. The jury is still out.

 

[Keith_W]

There is a hifi show in Melbourne this weekend. Quite likely DEQX will be there, given they are an Australian hifi company. I have met the founder and their chief engineer a few times. I will ask them for you and report back. FWIW, you don't need a new DEQX unit. You can search Hi-Fi Shark and look for secondhand units. I found a DEQX PDC 2.6, which is a very old unit (15 years) for USD$1300.

I also try to anticipate my next catastrophic drive failure. Again, MiniDSP handles this well: the plug-in is easy to install and configurations can be restored to it from the black box. I don't yet know whether software-based alternatives are as forgiving or whether a re-installation of the software will mean starting afresh with set-up and configuration.

The difficult part about software based convolution is actually making the convolution filters. Once you have those filters, they will run on anything. Even a MiniDSP, if your software is able to output a format that MiniDSP understands. You can put the measurement setup away and enjoy. So, in the event of a catastrophic computer crash, just pull out your convolution filters and reinstall in whatever program you are using.

You may not even need to make your own convolution filters. You can take a sweep, then pay @mitchco to make the filters for you. I can even do it for you for free, but I am not as skilled / don't know as much as Mitch and the result will definitely sound worse than what he can do, but as a proof of concept it will cost you nothing. Then all you need to do is install playback software on your computer, and you are done.

 

[Short38]

I have owned a minidsp 4 10. Blew up in first year replacement board sent and installed. Retired.

Had several Behringers. One failed and was replaced under warranty. Noisy.

Owned a Xilica that required a balanced amp. Bought an 8 channel nuprime which hummed. Got rid of both of those pieces.

Gave up on home brew actives except for a second system in my studio which uses an analog dbx crossover. Like it a lot even though it probably measures sh*tily.

Now I have a closet full of expensive drivers waiting for an inspiration.

 

[MAB]

Gave up on home brew actives except for a second system in my studio which uses an analog dbx crossover. Like it a lot even though it probably measures sh*tily.

I have Bryston 10b analog crossovers that work great to this day. The problem is limited flexibility. I think they measure pretty well, I have one that's the mid/tweeter and it really sounds fine, even with sensitive drivers. One of the dbx crossovers was measured at ASR, it was great. A crossover and a good-measuring dbx EQ and you are set.

 

[Old Hi-Fi Guy]

There is a hifi show in Melbourne this weekend. Quite likely DEQX will be there, given they are an Australian hifi company. I have met the founder and their chief engineer a few times. I will ask them for you and report back. FWIW, you don't need a new DEQX unit. You can search Hi-Fi Shark and look for secondhand units. I found a DEQX PDC 2.6, which is a very old unit (15 years) for USD$1300.

The difficult part about software based convolution is actually making the convolution filters. Once you have those filters, they will run on anything. Even a MiniDSP, if your software is able to output a format that MiniDSP understands. You can put the measurement setup away and enjoy. So, in the event of a catastrophic computer crash, just pull out your convolution filters and reinstall in whatever program you are using.

You may not even need to make your own convolution filters. You can take a sweep, then pay @mitchco to make the filters for you. I can even do it for you for free, but I am not as skilled / don't know as much as Mitch and the result will definitely sound worse than what he can do, but as a proof of concept it will cost you nothing. Then all you need to do is install playback software on your computer, and you are done.

I'm intrigued by the Pre-8, although I'm not sure how I'd buy one without my wife finding out how much it cost. Still, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. If you have an opportunity to find out the price and whether they have a distributor in western Canada, that would be a good first step. I've been skimming their very extensive instruction manual for earlier models in preparation for putting in a telephone call, but knowing the price would be a useful data point. Thank you for this, but don't go out of your way.

It's encouraging to learn that a fifteen year-old DEQX 1) still works, and 2) fetches good money.

Convolution filters. There, I'm out of my depth already! Had to look them up, but I'm only slightly better informed. Like everything else in life, the more you learn, the more you realize there is to be learned. My approach would be to build a new listening room with no parallel surfaces (not as crazy as it seems, because we will be moving house in a year or so). Your offer is very kind and I very much appreciate it, but I have a lot of reading to do first. Writing a big cheque for a plug-and-play solution may be better for me than disappearing down countless rabbit holes, even if it has less flexibility. Thank you again.

 

[Keith_W]

OK, I will ask Alan or David (from DEQX) for you. May I ask which city in Western Canada? Anywhere close to Vancouver? One reason why DEQX is so expensive is because it comes with support, here in Australia they come to your house and install the unit / take measurements / make filters for an additional fee. I believe that email support is free.

A convolution filter is simply a fancy term for the very same filters you install in your MiniDSP. Nothing to be scared of, you are already familiar with it. But where the MiniDSP is capable of fairly rudimentary correction, at a low resolution (I am talking about the size of the frequency blocks and not sampling rate), computer based software correction has no such limits. A MiniDSP (and DEQX) has somewhere between 2048 taps for all the channels. A "tap", in DSP terms, is a frequency-delay pair. At 48kHz, and 1024 taps per channel, this means each frequency "block" is (48000/1024) = 46.9Hz, meaning it's like a 1024 band equalizer (*other ASR members, please forgive me for not using the correct technical terms or providing a proper explanation, I am trying to explain things in an easy to understand way here). Acourate has 131,000 taps, meaning each frequency block is (48,000 / 131,000) = 0.37Hz. If you have ever seen an in room frequency response sweep, you will know that being able to correct in 46.9Hz bands is not enough, particularly for the bass. Having said that, 0.37Hz is way overkill but if you have the hardware capable of doing it, why not.

I will repeat my offer of helping you make the filters. This is what you need to do:

- set up your PC so that it is connected to a DAC with as many channels as you need, along with a microphone to take measurements, set up at the listening position.
- download and install the trial version of Acourate.
- take sweeps of your left and right speakers, or better still individual channel sweeps (if you are interested in doing this, I can give you further instructions)
- send me all the results of your sweeps.
- download and install the trial version of JRiver.
- I will send you the correction filters + instructions on how to get JRiver working.

If it works, and if you want better sound, send an email to @mitchco from Accurate Sound. You will have to pay him to make you filters. You will also have to pay for a JRiver license and a multichannel DAC. Believe me, with DSP it is the filters which are by far the most important, only coming in third behind your speakers and your room. Having proper filters is even more important than MiniDSP vs. DEQX vs. PC/Mac software based correction. Sure, PC based correction gives you the potential to get much better sound, but poorly implemented filters can easily make it sound worse. It would be even better to suggest you try to climb that learning curve yourself, because it is a rewarding and educational experience, but I can understand if you do not wish to do so.