Springs Under My Speakers: What's Happening?

[MattHooper]

LOL, let's keep going, prove that you have a window.

I want proof Purite Audio even made that post before it's worth answering. Could have been hacked. Or his wife posted while he wasn't looking.

 

[Music707]

I just saw a pig fly past my open window.
Keith

Have you perchance been listening to Pink Floyd's 'Animals'?

 

[Purité Audio]

I want proof Purite Audio even made that post before it's worth answering. Could have been hacked. Or his wife posted while he wasn't looking.

You want some kind of evidence that I actually saw a flying pig ( through my closed window and driving rain, thanks Emlin )
Keith

 

[jdjung]

You want some kind of evidence that I actually saw a flying pig ( through my closed window and driving rain, thanks Emlin )
Keith

I want your opinion on if you think decoupling speakers make a differenc, if coupling makes a difference or any type of material you use below the speaker to support the speaker makes a difference.

 

[Purité Audio]

The question you should be asking is, does decoupling make an audible difference.
Keith

 

[jdjung]

The question you should be asking is, does decoupling make an audible difference.
Keith

Fine does it?

 

[Doodski]

I used cinder blocks in an attempt to reduce phono feedback. So I made a stand for the stereo from cinder blocks and I placed the speakers on cinder blocks too. I did notice some reduction in feedback and I was able to crank up the volume without excessive feedback after. So I think in some circumstances it helps.

 

[Purité Audio]

Not in the experiments I have conducted.
Keith

 

[jdjung]

Not in the experiments I have conducted.
Keith

Are these speakers you promote on your website decoupled?

 

[Purité Audio]

I have a pair of Deni’s Mesanovic stands, they are properly engineered,( spring in gaskets) I am using them under a pair of 8Cs at the moment to bring them up to more or less ear height.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

I have a pair of Deni’s Mesanovic stands, they are properly engineered,( spring in gaskets) I am using them under a pair of 8Cs at the moment to bring them up to more or less ear height.
Keith

You could raise the height with any number of (likely much cheaper) alternatives.

After all the doubt you cast on my experience: Why did you choose spring based? If there were no plausible benefits, why bother?

 

[jdjung]

You could raise the height with any number of (likely much cheaper) alternatives.

After all the doubt you cast on my experience: Why did you choose spring based? If there were no plausible benefits, why bother?

I think he may have missed the part where you (Op) already stated the height change may be why your speakers sound better.

 

[Purité Audio]

You could raise the height with any number of (likely much cheaper) alternatives.

After all the doubt you cast on my experience: Why did you choose spring based? If there were no plausible benefits, why bother?

Frank Dernie of this very forum suggested that these stands were as far as he could tell properly designed and fit for purpose.
I reasoned that these would be a good choice for comparative measurement.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

Frank Dernie of this very forum suggested that these stands were as far as he could tell properly designed and fit for purpose.

What purpose specifically? It must be something beyond merely raising the speakers because as I said, you could do that without a spring based
platform.

I reasoned that these would be a good choice for comparative measurement.
Keith

So you measured the speakers with and without the spring based riser? Controlling for variables? If so, can you show us those measurements?

 

[MattHooper]

I think he may have missed the part where you (Op) already stated the height change may be why your speakers sound better.

Yup. All reasonable caveats were given early in the thread.

 

[MAB]

I stumbled on this post searching to see if I should buy filler for my stands. I really enjoyed your (OP) post and your viewpoints as well as the positive portions of the debate going back and forth. I didn't enjoy some people, that in my opinion, seemed condescending to you and think you handled it well. You stated in the begining that you(OP) were not going to take measurements that some people want and that you enjoy the listening tests after making tweeks, some people in this thread ignore this and insist you do things their way or else you're crazy and delusional without posting measurements themselves.

But did the thread help you to decide if you should fill your speaker stands?

I have a bag of fancy-sand from the days when I sold audio. It was costly when I sold such things, it should suffice for a test. If I see differences, perhaps I will follow up with more materials. I also have a pair of Paradigm Export Monitors, a fine speaker to test the stand-filling hypothesis. They are firmly bolted to steel stands with isolation patches. The stands do ring a bit.

I set up a mic at 1 meter, carefully marking the speaker's position since that is critical.

I measured the speaker, then filled it with the sand.

I returned the speaker with the stand filled with sand to the same position and (without moving the microphone) repeated the measurement.
Red is with No Sand. Green is with the stand filled With Sand.

The differences are tiny. Could it be positioning? I tried to get the speaker to within a few millimeters of original position. I will test for how sensitive the speaker is to position.
I rotated the speaker with the stands filled with sand by moving off axis keeping the distance to the microphone the same. It's only a couple millimeter nudge, about 2 degrees horizontal rotation.

A much larger difference is seen due to rotation than can be attributed to sand-filling.
How about vertical? I tilted the speaker back by elevating the front by about 2mm (also a couple degrees of tilt).

No surprise the small vertical shift affects the sound more than horizontal:

These two results show we can't tell if the tiny differences measured after sand-filling is just tiny changes in placement.

Lastly, how about moving the speaker 8 inches closer to the wall, keeping the mic (as best I can) same distance and orientation to the speaker.

This says way more about my room than about sand in my stands. You can see the room mode at 40Hz is unaffected, that's because I moved the speaker closer to the back wall and this mode in my room is transverse to that. I did change the 55Hz mode's depth since that is from front to back wall and the change in position is changing how the speaker is energizing that mode. The peak that moves from 120 to 140Hz and the one that moves from 180 to 200 are cancelation from the back wall. See here for instance:

Monitor Placement - Genelec.com

To create the ideal listening experience, several aspects need to be taken into account when placing the monitors within the listening space. First, you need to identify the listening area within the space and consider where the listener will be placed in relation to the space as well as the...

www.genelec.com

In summary.
I did the time-honored (and slightly messy) task of filling one of my speaker stands with sand. I measured nearly zero difference in sound before and after the stands were filled with sand. I also measured the tolerance of the experiment to speaker and mic placement and showed that tilting speaker position by just a few millimeters in the horizonal or vertical plane made a much larger difference in the sound than the addition of sand to the stands. This gives some confidence that I got the speakers positioned in the same place after filling the stands. I also found that positioning the speakers 8 inches closer to the wall made a much more dramatic impact on the sound than treating the stands with sand.

The room and relative position sensitivities are no surprise. I can't hear the small differences in horizontal or vertical tilt. I can hear the differences in bass as I move the speaker a relative to the back wall. I certainly can't hear the impact of sand in the stands. I can't even measure a difference and the mic is way more sensitive and quantitative than my ear.

 

[Sal1950]

I used cinder blocks in an attempt to reduce phono feedback. So I made a stand for the stereo from cinder blocks and I placed the speakers on cinder blocks too. I did notice some reduction in feedback and I was able to crank up the volume without excessive feedback after. So I think in some circumstances it helps.

That's a reversed case study of a highly microphonic component.
Engineers have been working on TT isolation since near day 1.
Some change is to be expected and differences easily measured.

In summary.
I did the time-honored (and slightly messy) task of filling one of my speaker stands with sand. I measured nearly zero difference in sound before and after the stands were filled with sand. I also measured the tolerance of the experiment to speaker and mic placement and showed that tilting speaker position by just a few millimeters in the horizonal or vertical plane made a much larger difference in the sound than the addition of sand to the stands. This gives some confidence that I got the speakers positioned in the same place after filling the stands. I also found that positioning the speakers 8 inches closer to the wall made a much more dramatic impact on the sound than treating the stands with sand.

Great job!
Now that's a post worthy of ASR,
Not the "I heard it, so it is so" stuff you get from the subjective sights.

 

[Sal1950]

Wow, what did you expect from ASR? Really? Expectations doesn't excuse rude behavior.

BTW, I don't see a single post you can accuse of "rude behavior".
Simply statements of ASR mission, to separate the science of audio from the unsupportable myth.

 

[MAB]

Are you saying a person's direct experiences isn't a type of evidence for themsleves to decide for themselves on what works and doesn't for themselves? A person's declaration on a direct experiences is evidence, the credibility to someone else is completely different.

My impressions are not really useful.
I went into the sand-filled stand test with some predisposed beliefs:

1. There would be only very small measurable differences between sand and no-sand.
2. I might find it difficult to to return the sand filled stand and speaker to the same position. So I better skew the angles to understand repeatability.
3. I wouldn’t likely hear the differences in (1) or (2) unless I moved the speaker a large distance. Because I just don't trust my ears.

That was my personal prejudice, and probably defines most of my circle of confusion in this whole affair. I tried to control for these in my approach.
I still believe my experiences are not useful, sometimes contra-useful.
I saw less change between sand and no-sand than I even anticipated.

My impressions and experiences of music or sound have limitations and fallibility when I try to use for comparison.

In a possibly related note, I only have one speaker stand sand-filled now. I know I can't hear the difference, and I know measure identical. But it will bug me until the end of days if I don't fill the other one. So I will, of course I will.

 

[MattHooper]

My impressions are not really useful.
I went into the sand-filled stand test with some predisposed beliefs:

1. There would be only very small measurable differences between sand and no-sand.
2. I might find it difficult to to return the sand filled stand and speaker to the same position. So I better skew the angles to understand repeatability.
3. I wouldn’t likely hear the differences in (1) or (2) unless I moved the speaker a large distance. Because I just don't trust my ears.

That was my personal prejudice, and probably defines most of my circle of confusion in this whole affair. I tried to control for these in my approach.
I still believe my experiences are not useful, sometimes contra-useful.
I saw less change between sand and no-sand than I even anticipated.

My impressions and experiences of music or sound have limitations and fallibility when I try to use for comparison.

In a possibly related note, I only have one speaker stand sand-filled now. I know I can't hear the difference, and I know measure identical. But it will bug me until the end of days if I don't fill the other one. So I will, of course I will.

I have speaker stands that can be filled with sand. I never bothered doing it. For one thing it would just make them heavier to move around. For another I doubted
it would make much difference to the sound, which I still tend to doubt. (Though I'm open to the idea).