Sold Out - Revel Salon2 New Stock w/ full warranty $12k plus shipping

[MarkS]

80 Hz is not 150 Hz. There is a huge amount of musical energy in that range. And it's localizable so you need that output being emitted near the >150 Hz drivers.

 

[NTK]

What is the difference between a subwoofer that is inside the Salon2 and an external subwoofer in the context of distortion if both are emitting the same range of frequencies. I don't understand your point?

If the subwoofer driver only need to cover to 63 Hz, per ANSI/CTA-2010-B, it is acceptable to have a maximum HD2 of -15 dB.

If it has to cover to 160 Hz, the threshold tightens to -24 dB. That means, if the driver has to reproduce both frequencies bands, the "bottleneck" is the 80-160 Hz octave HD+noise limit of -24 dB. It cannot run the <63 Hz frequencies to levels that produces -15 dB of HD2, since if it does that it will cause the >80 Hz frequencies to distort beyond the acceptable limit of -24 dB.

 

[sarumbear]

If the subwoofer driver only need to cover to 63 Hz, per ANSI/CTA-2010-B, it is acceptable to have a maximum HD2 of -15 dB.

If it has to cover to 160 Hz, the threshold tightens to -24 dB. That means, if the driver has to reproduce both frequencies bands, the "bottleneck" is the 80-160 Hz octave HD+noise limit of -24 dB. It cannot run the <63 Hz frequencies to levels that produces -15 dB of HD2, since if it does that it will cause the >80 Hz frequencies to distort beyond the acceptable limit of -24 dB.

View attachment 299854

I need to read the standard to understand. So far you are not making sense to me. Why would a frequency range affect HD? Why is that only happens on low frequency drivers but not on high frequency ones as well?

 

[NTK]

I need to read the standard to understand. So far you are not making sense to me. Why would a frequency range affect HD? Why is that only happens on low frequency drivers but not on high frequency ones as well?

My last try.

• If a speaker driver plays a tone at 63 Hz at A dB SPL, and it produces a THD of -15 dB (= 17.8%).
• If the same speaker driver plays a tone at 63 Hz at B dB SPL, and it produces a THD of -24 dB (= 6.3%).
• Under most practical circumstances, we can easily conclude that A > B.
• If the speaker driver plays a tone at 63 Hz at B dB SPL, while simultaneously play another tone at 150 Hz, the additional distortion products at frequencies above 150 Hz tone will be > -24 dB, relative to the amplitude of the 150 Hz tone.
• Thus, this speaker driver will not be able to play both the 63 Hz and 150 Hz tones, and have < -24 dB total distortion products above 150 Hz if it is playing the 63 Hz tone at > B dB SPL.
• Therefore, this speaker driver will not be able to reproduce 63 Hz at B dB SPL (let alone A dB SPL) if it also have to play a 150 Hz tone at any level to an acceptable distortion level (-24 dB). When the speaker driver is playing the 63 Hz at B dB SPL, it is already operating in the nonlinear region that playing any other tones on top of it will result in > -24 dB additional distortion products (relative to the new tone).
• If the 63 Hz duty is offloaded to the sub(s), this limitation is removed. The sub(s) in the combined system can reproduce A dB SPL of 63 Hz (or higher) and the mains can reproduce the 150 Hz to its original capacity.

 

[BlackTalon]

@NTK isn't the third bullet incorrect? 6.3% distortion (B) seems better than 17.8% (A) to me.

 

[NTK]

@NTK isn't the third bullet incorrect? 6.3% distortion (B) seems better than 17.8% (A) to me.

A is the dB SPL that results in 17.8% distortions, and B is the dB SPL that results in 6.3% distortions. Thus A > B (i.e. A is louder than B).

 

[BlackTalon]

A is the dB SPL that results in 17.8% distortions, and B is the dB SPL that results in 6.3% distortions. Thus A > B (i.e. A is louder than B).

D'oh -- sorry, brain fade.

 

[jhaider]

Then why buy a full range speaker like Salon2?

You should ask Floyd Toole that question.

 

[Todd k]

What's up with the door on the binding posts? No way it closes when using banana plugs. During such a long production run, I thought this would have been "fixed"?

View attachment 299155

Mine won’t close a small imperfection in a great speaker

 

[sprellemannen]

Just terminate the cables with spade lugs and the doors close nicely.
I am using Dali spade lugs, confer my list of equipment for the link to the spades.

 

[walt99]

My 2c, Salon doesn't need subs when playing 2 ch music.
I do use subs when I changes to HT mode though, crossed at std 80hz and they also play LFE content.

 

[sarumbear]

My last try.

• If a speaker driver plays a tone at 63 Hz at A dB SPL, and it produces a THD of -15 dB (= 17.8%).
• If the same speaker driver plays a tone at 63 Hz at B dB SPL, and it produces a THD of -24 dB (= 6.3%).
• Under most practical circumstances, we can easily conclude that A > B.
• If the speaker driver plays a tone at 63 Hz at B dB SPL, while simultaneously play another tone at 150 Hz, the additional distortion products at frequencies above 150 Hz tone will be > -24 dB, relative to the amplitude of the 150 Hz tone.
• Thus, this speaker driver will not be able to play both the 63 Hz and 150 Hz tones, and have < -24 dB total distortion products above 150 Hz if it is playing the 63 Hz tone at > B dB SPL.
• Therefore, this speaker driver will not be able to reproduce 63 Hz at B dB SPL (let alone A dB SPL) if it also have to play a 150 Hz tone at any level to an acceptable distortion level (-24 dB). When the speaker driver is playing the 63 Hz at B dB SPL, it is already operating in the nonlinear region that playing any other tones on top of it will result in > -24 dB additional distortion products (relative to the new tone).
• If the 63 Hz duty is offloaded to the sub(s), this limitation is removed. The sub(s) in the combined system can reproduce A dB SPL of 63 Hz (or higher) and the mains can reproduce the 150 Hz to its original capacity.

First of all, thank you for bearing with me. I appreciate your explanation.

However, it seems to me the distortion you are talking is not harmonic but intermodulation as it is the result of interaction of more than one frequency. I have not seen IMD measurements of a subwoofer, let alone any low frequency electromagnetic driver. I know that Klippel can measure IMD but never came across a test result. Hence, don’t know if -24dB is an issue or not.

Also, 40-150Hz is less than three octaves. (I omit the first octave as driver’s inherent distortion in the first octave is usually much higher than the levels involved with this mechanism.) If the said distortion mechanism exists why are we not concerned for the remaining six octave range the speaker emits?

As I said earlier, I will read the standard to understand your concern but I appreciate if you confirm that, contrary to what the chart title says the distortion is not HD but IMD.

Thank you.

 

[sarumbear]

My 2c, Salon doesn't need subs when playing 2 ch music.
I do use subs when I changes to HT mode though, crossed at std 80hz and they also play LFE content.

Have you tried feeding only the LFE to the sub and left Salon2 full range?

 

[sarumbear]

You should ask Floyd Toole that question.

Why should I? He also has Salon2.

 

[BlackTalon]

Why should I? He also has Salon2.

Might be a reference to the photos of his old room showing multiple subwoofers

 

[walt99]

Have you tried feeding only the LFE to the sub and left Salon2 full range?

No but that is an excellent point and will have to try that, having only had the Alt 16 for a few weeks I'm still trying to figure things out.

 

[Astoneroad]

I just listened to my usual test tracks. I can control the sub from my LP. After playing tracks repeatedly, with the sub at various levels, including off, I prefer it with the sub at -15 dB. I'm not qualifying or quantifying beyond that, so clearly in the realm of subjectivity... not to mention the path of least resistance by a good margin. I'll continue to try to wrap my brain around the technical insights being generously offered here... but I can't let it get in the way of my escape into the music. That's where I am in this moment... however ephemeral both it and the notes contained within may be... so here I sit... with a foolish grin... keeping perfectly still... just an old fool on a hill. I came to ASR with an open mind... and that remains so... but it's hard to prefer a sound knowing that it's not the Grail... but so far, that's the case.

 

[jhaider]

Why should I? He also has Salon2.

That's exactly why - as @BlackTalon noted above, Dr. Toole deployed Salon2s with multiple subwoofers crossed over at 80Hz. By internet standards the subwoofers were not monsters, either - 12" woofers in relatively small closed boxes. He's also written fairly extensively about why he did so.

The other consideration is next-gen room correction systems such as Dirac ART will be able to (are able to on StormAudio AVR/Ps currently) lever the bass extension and output capabilities of all speakers in the room.

 

[sarumbear]

By internet standards the subwoofers were not monsters, either - 12" woofers in relatively small closed boxes.

They are equivalent to 14" drivers in each.

 

[sarumbear]

I just listened to my usual test tracks. I can control the sub from my LP. After playing tracks repeatedly, with the sub at various levels, including off, I prefer it with the sub at -15 dB. I'm not qualifying or quantifying beyond that, so clearly in the realm of subjectivity... not to mention the path of least resistance by a good margin. I'll continue to try to wrap my brain around the technical insights being generously offered here... but I can't let it get in the way of my escape into the music. That's where I am in this moment... however ephemeral both it and the notes contained within may be... so here I sit... with a foolish grin... keeping perfectly still... just an old fool on a hill. I came to ASR with an open mind... and that remains so... but it's hard to prefer a sound knowing that it's not the Grail... but so far, that's the case.

View attachment 299936

How do you cross over between Salon2 and the sub? (What is LP?)