uBACCH now available for Windows

[Ricwa]

I bought the uBACCH Mac plugin for $340 with the EARLYBACCH15 discount. My 2.2 setup is Roon -> Element -> uBACCH -> Dirac Live with DLBC -> RME ADI-2/4 Pro. My subjective impression is that the soundstage expands in width and depth; and the sense of realism is significantly enhanced with the uBACCH filter.

 

[Theoretica Appl. Physics]

It has been more than a couple of weeks since I posted this thread, tagged Theoretica, and then followed it up with an email to Theoretica with the same questions. I would really like to purchase uBACCH for Windows, but I am undecided if I should do this, or buy a Mac and send audio to it. I would like an option to upgrade to "more advanced" versions of BACCH in the future, and if the Windows version is going to be a dead end, then I will not purchase it.

I am very disappointed with Theoretica's lack of transparency and lack of response to these questions.

The u-BACCH plugins are not products of Theoretica. They are products of BACCH Labs, a separate company whose main function is to license BACCH and other spatial audio technologies mostly developed at Prof. Choueiri's lab at Princeton University. Theoretica has its own implementation of u-BACCH, and the more advanced custom c-BACCH filters (which are based on individualized acoustic measurements ,and allow for head tracking), in its BACCH4Mac Products, which are not VST plugins, and which have been amply reviewed in this forum and elsewhere. We at Theoretica are known for our "fanatic tech support," and we try very hard to reply quickly to all inquiries related to our products. For support with u-BACCH plugins you should contact BACCH Labs and not Theoretica.

 

[digitalfrost]

There are other plugins that do crosstalk cancellation via Ambiophonics, either for free or much less money than this.

 

[Theoretica Appl. Physics]

Yes, I can imagine that. But it would be really nice to know what you are buying. I was stung by HQPlayer after I discovered that if you lose your download, you have to buy another license. This was not disclosed until after you pay your money. These days I look very carefully to see what you get with your license. In particular, whether the software will be supported with upgrades, if so for how long, and whether there is an upgrade path. Theoretica has not published this information.

Again, please note that the u-BACCH plugins are NOT products of Theoretica. (They are recent releases by a separate company called BACCH Labs). Theoretica's products have been around for more than 6 years. The terms for support and updates of our BACCH4Mac products are clearly stated in detail at the bottom of our official BACCH4Mac webpage.

 

[Keith_W]

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

I suppose that answers my question: given that uBACCH and BACCH4Mac are different products from different companies, a uBACCH license can not be upgraded to one of the BACCH4Mac licenses. In other words, until a BACCH Labs rep advertises otherwise on future upgrades, it appears that uBACCH is a dead end.

No plans to make a BACCH4Windows?

 

[Theoretica Appl. Physics]

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

I suppose that answers my question: given that uBACCH and BACCH4Mac are different products from different companies, a uBACCH license can not be upgraded to one of the BACCH4Mac licenses. In other words, until a BACCH Labs rep advertises otherwise on future upgrades, it appears that uBACCH is a dead end.

No plans to make a BACCH4Windows?

I think this is adding to the confusion so it is important to try to make things clear.

u-BACCH stands for "universal BACCH filters" and is a no-tonal-distortion crosstalk cancellation technology that allows getting some level of crosstalk cancellation without individualized acoustic measurement. BACCH Labs has recently released u-BACCH plugins for Windows and the Mac OS. Theoretica offers its own implementation of u-BACCH in its BACCH4Mac Intro Product. BACCH4Mac is a standalone audio processing app fro the Mac and NOT a plugin. It comes in 4 editions. The lowest cost one is called Intro and offers only u-BACCH filters. The higher editions (Audiophile, Audiophile+, and Pro) offer the more accurate c-BACCH (custom BACCH filters), which rely on individualized acoustic measurements using the in-ear BACCH-BM microphone.

We cannot speak for BACCH Labs, their plugins, their support or their terms for upgrade, but it is wrong to say that "u-BACCH is a dead end" since Theoretica's BACCH4Mac Intro (which, again has only u-BACCH) is a very well supported product that is enjoyed by many (some of whom end up upgrading to the higher editions as per Theoretica's clearly stated upgrade policy).

Theoretica has no plans at the present to create any products for the Windows OS.

I hope the above makes things clear

 

[Zoomer]

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

Good you asked

I guess we'll have to wait and see if BACCHLabs takes the windows-version any further.
I've sent BACCHLabs a link to this thread.

 

[mitchco]

@Keith_W Just in case, you can adjust the VST3 buffer size in JRiver. The default setting of 256 samples is typically too small as the sample rate increases.
I can't remember which version of JRiver supports the adjustable buffer size as I am running the latest 31 version. It is under Tools->Options->Audio->Advanced (scroll down):

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I can't remember which version of JRiver supports the adjustable buffer size as I am running the latest 31 version.

Works on version 30, too.

 

[Ricwa]

I think this is adding to the confusion so it is important to try to make things clear.

u-BACCH stands for "universal BACCH filters" and is a no-tonal-distortion crosstalk cancellation technology that allows getting some level of crosstalk cancellation without individualized acoustic measurement. BACCH Labs has recently released u-BACCH plugins for Windows and the Mac OS. Theoretica offers its own implementation of u-BACCH in its BACCH4Mac Intro Product. BACCH4Mac is a standalone audio processing app fro the Mac and NOT a plugin. It comes in 4 editions. The lowest cost one is called Intro and offers only u-BACCH filters. The higher editions (Audiophile, Audiophile+, and Pro) offer the more accurate c-BACCH (custom BACCH filters), which rely on individualized acoustic measurements using the in-ear BACCH-BM microphone.

We cannot speak for BACCH Labs, their plugins, their support or their terms for upgrade, but it is wrong to say that "u-BACCH is a dead end" since Theoretica's BACCH4Mac Intro (which, again has only u-BACCH) is a very well supported product that is enjoyed by many (some of whom end up upgrading to the higher editions as per Theoretica's clearly stated upgrade policy).

Theoretica has no plans at the present to create any products for the Windows OS.

I hope the above makes things clear

It sounds like what is being said is that u-BACCH when purchased from BACCH Labs is a dead end but u-BACCH purchased from Theoretica as part of BACCH4Mac is not (talk about confusing). It further sounds like you have licensed your u-BACCH filter to BACCH Labs and that the core component is the same as in the BACCH4Mac intro edition (the u-BACCH filter), they are just bundled and packaged differently. When you say BACCH Labs with their u-BACCH product is NOT the same company/product as Theoretica’s BACCH4Mac with its u-BACCH filter, this will only confuse the marketplace due to both company name and product name being extremely similar. When I purchased the plug-in, I was left with the impression I was purchasing from either Theoretica or a subsidiary of such.

 

[Theoretica Appl. Physics]

We are not at all saying or implying that "u-BACCH when purchased from BACCH Labs is a dead end". As far as we know BACCH Labs has full intent to support the u-BACCH plugin, but we cannot speak for BACCH Labs as it is a separate company. (Both Theoretica and BACCH Labs are licensed by Princeton University to commercialize BACCH).

Furthermore the two products, BACCH Labs’ u-BACCH plugin and Theoretica’s BACCH4Mac Intro are quite different products: While the former is a VST plugin that typically requires a DAW to work, the latter is a standalone application that syncs with attached devices and DACs directly, gets audio on its own, and sends audio to devices recognized by the Mac's Core audio directly. It also has other built-in capabilities such as its own advanced upsampling algorithms, optimized multi-core parallel processing, 31-band equalization, a 3-band crossover network, and the ability to integrate third-party plugins. Also, it can be upgraded to allow making individualized c-BACCH filters with acoustic measurements and head tracking.

In sum, the two companies offer distinct but complementary products: BACCH Labs offers u-BACCH plugins for Mac and Windows, and is not licensed to offer c-BACCH. Theoretica does not offer plugins but rather a standalone app, BACCH4Mac (for the Mac only) that has c-BACCH as an upgrade option. If you buy a product from www.bacch.com you should expect support from BACCH Labs. If you buy a product from www.theoretica.us, we should expect support from us.

There is not much to add, and since this forum is about BACCH Labs' u-BACCH plugin, we will leave this forum and focus on the other forums where Theoretica's products are discussed.

 

[Keith_W]

So in summary:

- Buy uBACCH for Mac from BACCH Labs: no option to upgrade to BACCH4Mac from Theoretica since they are separate companies.
- Buy uBACCH VST plugin for Windows from BACCH Labs: future development is uncertain. We have to wait for a representative of BACCH Labs to join ASR and reply. They still haven't replied the email I sent them with my questions, and I think they probably never will.
- Buy BACCH4Mac Intro from Theoretica for twice the price of the uBACCH plugin from BACCH Labs - you will get uBACCH, other advanced DSP capabilities, and potential to upgrade to other BACCH4Mac packages which includes cBACCH which allows individualized filters and head tracking.

At this moment, as a Windows user, I have to decide if I (1) wait and see until BACCH Labs announce future plans for uBACCH. I won't buy uBACCH without knowing what plans they have for it, or (2) buy a Mac and get BACCH4Mac from Theoretica. This introduces more problems because Windows is needed to run Acourate, so I have to send audio from the PC to the Mac which introduces more complexity, more points of failure, and probably more latency. These options are not attractive.

 

[STC]

I was suffering from a lot of latency and dropouts (manifesting as soft bass thumps). So I reconfigured JRiver to stop upsampling to 192kHz and listened at 44.1kHz for the rest of my testing. This worked, and the dropouts went away.

I am skeptical if the cancellation actually working at the given sampling rate. I remember using another XTC product that supposedly work with DSD but it turned out they actually downsample the DSD to 44.1kHz to apply the algorithm for XTC. Therefore, the dropouts you are mentioning is probably due to your PC not having enough CPU or RAM to handle the conversion. For playback 44.1kHz should be transparent enough note:- (although I use 96kHz sampling rate due to all the IRs for reverbs were captured at 96kHz.)

I found that the difference was more apparent with some tracks over others, so my testing methodology involved:

Stereo playback with and without cancellation should be like night and day different. I am not sure what’s actually missing with your setup. Could you do a phase test of your speakers?

 

[Keith_W]

I am skeptical if the cancellation actually working at the given sampling rate. I remember using another XTC product that supposedly work with DSD but it turned out they actually downsample the DSD to 44.1kHz to apply the algorithm for XTC. Therefore, the dropouts you are mentioning is probably due to your PC not having enough CPU or RAM to handle the conversion. For playback 44.1kHz should be transparent enough note:- (although I use 96kHz sampling rate due to all the IRs for reverbs were captured at 96kHz.)

I am skeptical if it's not enough PC. I have an i9-9900K with 32GB of RAM. When I play audio, CPU usage sits at about 5% and RAM is about 30%.

Stereo playback with and without cancellation should be like night and day different. I am not sure what’s actually missing with your setup. Could you do a phase test of your speakers?

Good point. After I saw your post I went around digging to look at measurements I have saved on this PC. I will have to dig into the audio PC to have a look.

 

[STC]

I am skeptical if it's not enough PC. I have an i9-9900K with 32GB of RAM. When I play audio, CPU usage sits at about 5% and RAM is about 30%.

5% with BACCH?

 

[Keith_W]

Yes.

 

[Theoretica Appl. Physics]

So in summary:

...Windows is needed to run Acourate, so I have to send audio from the PC to the Mac which introduces more complexity, more points of failure, and probably more latency. These options are not attractive.

A number of BACCH4Mac users use Accurate or other third-party room correction (RC), as long as the RC filter is not in a proprietary format. You simply make an RC filter with your Acourate system, then port that filter (as a wav or air file) into the output stage of BACCH4Mac's BACCH-dSP application, by instantiating a convolution plugin inside BACCH-dSP and loading the RC filter in the convolver. You then do not need to have a separate system/computer for applying the filter. (Note that RC should be applied downstream of BACCH, and, in the case of c-BACCH, the BACCH filter should be designed with RC applied).

 

[Zoomer]

BACCH Labs offers u-BACCH plugins for Mac and Windows, and is not licensed to offer c-BACCH

So, no upgrade path for the windows VST to include measurements-based filters.

 

[STC]

I use i-9900K too and 5% is pretty close to XTCWith JRiver. Other than incorrect buffer setting I am not sure why you have problem with 192 Sampling rate unless it is related to the BACCH itself. Hope you get it sorted out soon.

 

[Keith_W]

So, no upgrade path for the windows VST to include measurements-based filters.

I think that has been partially answered already. Theoretica which makes BACCH4Mac (which has measurement based filters) has no plans for Windows development. Our other hope, BACCH Labs, has not been forthcoming with their plans.

I use i-9900K too and 5% is pretty close to XTCWith JRiver. Other than incorrect buffer setting I am not sure why you have problem with 192 Sampling rate unless it is related to the BACCH itself. Hope you get it sorted out soon.

Yeah, I was pretty baffled myself. Anyway, my trial with uBACCH has expired, and I am not able to run it any more. I decided not to give them any money until my questions were answered. They weren't, so I haven't.