Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[SIY]

Yes, as do other people, as does my friend who has heard mine vs his two models.

Can you give a specific example?

And of course, did you use basic ears-only controls?

Grazie!

 

[all24bits]

Can you give a specific example?

And of course, did you use basic ears-only controls?

Grazie!

The Zen One Signature is the most laid back and warm with biggest soundstage. The Zen Blue V2 is the most foward, up front sound and more neutral sounding. The Zen Stream sits in the middle as far as soundstage goes. I like the Zen Stream over the Blue V2. I own the Zen One Sig and the Blue V2. He owns the Blue V2 and the Zen Stream.

We used our ears on three sets of equipment in two different houses on multiple occasions. If you don't believe me, that's fine. The same guy can't tell the difference between any sort of audio cables at all, so he uses the $25 brands and moves on with life. My fiance' can't tell the difference between water brands either. I asked her when we met her favorite water brand and she said "why do I care? It's just water. It's all the same." which made me extremely happy, because now when we go to a gas station, I buy her the 99 cent bottles and I stick with the Smartwater brand. So my total ends up being about 4 bucks instead of 6, we save money, and she moves on with life happy never thinking about the subject again and putting the extra money towards something she CAN tell the difference between.

So to answer the question: is it a waste of money? Depends on what you're looking for in a sound signature and how well your ears are trained or abilitied. Half of this stuff is really just knowing what to listen for. I couldn't tell the difference between an expensive watch and a cheap watch if my life depended on it (I assume watches are a 'solved science'), but that doesn't mean there aren't differences and features that are worth it to the right person.

 

[Beave]

You mention that you used your ears, but he asked "ears only." That "ONLY" part is important, yet you failed to respond to that part.

There's also the issue of level-matching. How did you go about ensuring the levels were closely matched?

 

[kemmler3D]

(I assume watches are a 'solved science'), but that doesn't mean there aren't differences and features that are worth it to the right person.

This is actually the case with DACs for the most part, too. The differences between most DACs including IFI ones are below any plausible, sometimes even theoretical thresholds of audibility. Another way of saying this is the human being who can tell the difference between two decent DACs, in a serious blind test, involving normal listening scenarios is unknown to science. This is why people are being kinda skeptical about the differences you heard.

Basically nobody has ears that can actually hear the difference between decent* DACs while listening to music. However, just about everyone (excepting those with some kind of neurological disorder) has a brain that can and does influence what they hear based on what they expect to hear.

This, and mismatched levels via loudness effect probably account for almost every subjective difference reported between DACs. They aren't supposed to do anything to the sound, just hand it off to the amp, and thankfully almost every DAC you can buy does that job extremely well.

So, like you said about watches, DACs are basically a solved problem in audio... but there are different features that make them worth choosing among and discussing. Different I/O, knobs, buttons, DSP, warranties, aesthetics, etc.

This is not a knock or a dig. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE will hear some kind of difference if they truly expect to hear one. The real benefit of realizing this is to become like your wife, happy with the $0.99 water (budget DAC), and spend the money where it counts (speakers, headphones).

*It is possible to buy a DAC with enough noise or distortion or FR deviation that you could hear it in a blind test. But you kinda need to go out of your way for that.

 

[SIY]

The Zen One Signature is the most laid back and warm with biggest soundstage. The Zen Blue V2 is the most foward, up front sound and more neutral sounding. The Zen Stream sits in the middle as far as soundstage goes. I like the Zen Stream over the Blue V2. I own the Zen One Sig and the Blue V2. He owns the Blue V2 and the Zen Stream.

We used our ears on three sets of equipment in two different houses on multiple occasions. If you don't believe me, that's fine. The same guy can't tell the difference between any sort of audio cables at all, so he uses the $25 brands and moves on with life. My fiance' can't tell the difference between water brands either. I asked her when we met her favorite water brand and she said "why do I care? It's just water. It's all the same." which made me extremely happy, because now when we go to a gas station, I buy her the 99 cent bottles and I stick with the Smartwater brand. So my total ends up being about 4 bucks instead of 6, we save money, and she moves on with life happy never thinking about the subject again and putting the extra money towards something she CAN tell the difference between.

So to answer the question: is it a waste of money? Depends on what you're looking for in a sound signature and how well your ears are trained or abilitied. Half of this stuff is really just knowing what to listen for. I couldn't tell the difference between an expensive watch and a cheap watch if my life depended on it (I assume watches are a 'solved science'), but that doesn't mean there aren't differences and features that are worth it to the right person.

Uncontrolled "listening" can lead to erroneous conclusions. Trust your ears, try comparing level matched with no peeking.

 

[Sal1950]

I also hear a clear difference between their various DACs, with my favorite being the Zen One Signature. YMV

It's important to close your eyes when listening

 

[all24bits]

You mention that you used your ears, but he asked "ears only." That "ONLY" part is important, yet you failed to respond to that part.

There's also the issue of level-matching. How did you go about ensuring the levels were closely matched?

If I did or did not level match wouldn't matter here. It would need to be blind tested (what if people don't have anyone to administer the test?) and THEN peer reviewed to be accepted. I'm actually really confused why people who thinks all DACs sound alike are hanging out discussing DACs that have no differences when they could just buy the top ASR rated DAC and be done with the hardware hobby/discussion for good. We already have enough DACs on the market that operate and sound identical (like, all or most of them). I think manufacturers should shut down and and stop producing electronic waste and trying to scam people.

Uncontrolled "listening" can lead to erroneous conclusions. Trust your ears, try comparing level matched with no peeking.

I used it in real world conditions like real people would. I used it on equipment I am inately familiar and intimate with, with music I am inately familiar and intimate with. I did not set up a laboratory and have someone stand over me and blind test me and then submit my findings to other audiophiles to review whether or not the test was accurate and truthful.

That's ridiculous to expect, especially coming from someone who has a link for "best coffee on the planet" in their signature, which is a factual statement about a completely subjective topic. How are they the world's best Coffee? Have they been blind tested and peer reviewed? What if I like another coffee? Why are you picking and choosing what subjects to be scientific about? You may want to change your signature for that link to "A coffee on the planet" which is a factual statement that can be peer reviewed in a laboratory setting.

I could provide a video recording of all the DACs which would showcase their differences, but then I'm sure either a) people couldn't hear the difference or b) complain the microphone wasn't set up properly or c) insert any other claim about why the video is not accurate.

However, if you'd like to prove that my friend and I could not hear the differences between the DACs, you're welcome to fly here and administer a blind test and then get it peer reviewed by others (on your dime, of course, because I am sure you care more about my experience being 'wrong' than I do proving it 'right').

And to @kemmler3D ---- I never expect to hear differences in DACs. I go in with a blank mind with zero expectations on what to hear. What I hear is what gets presented to me. I do not go into a DAC listening session and expect to hear certain things that magically appear just as I expected to hear them.

 

[Killingbeans]

The Zen One Signature is the most laid back and warm with biggest soundstage. The Zen Blue V2 is the most foward, up front sound and more neutral sounding. The Zen Stream sits in the middle as far as soundstage goes. I like the Zen Stream over the Blue V2. I own the Zen One Sig and the Blue V2. He owns the Blue V2 and the Zen Stream.

We used our ears on three sets of equipment in two different houses on multiple occasions. If you don't believe me, that's fine. The same guy can't tell the difference between any sort of audio cables at all, so he uses the $25 brands and moves on with life. My fiance' can't tell the difference between water brands either. I asked her when we met her favorite water brand and she said "why do I care? It's just water. It's all the same." which made me extremely happy, because now when we go to a gas station, I buy her the 99 cent bottles and I stick with the Smartwater brand. So my total ends up being about 4 bucks instead of 6, we save money, and she moves on with life happy never thinking about the subject again and putting the extra money towards something she CAN tell the difference between.

So to answer the question: is it a waste of money? Depends on what you're looking for in a sound signature and how well your ears are trained or abilitied. Half of this stuff is really just knowing what to listen for. I couldn't tell the difference between an expensive watch and a cheap watch if my life depended on it (I assume watches are a 'solved science'), but that doesn't mean there aren't differences and features that are worth it to the right person.

The guy with the $25 cables was just lucky enough to avoid perceptual bias for whatever reason. There's absolutely nothing in the natural world that indicates an audible difference between sensibly specced cables, besides the one you get from expectation bias. Seriously, it's not even up for debate.

IMO, when answering the question: "Is it a waste of money?", it depends on whether the effect or the cause is more important to you.

There's lots and lots of people who CAN tell the difference between all kinds of things, and every single one of them says that it's because they "know what to listen for". But when they finally put the difference to a proper test with controls, it completely vanishes. Turns out they simply heard what they wanted to hear. Nothing wrong with that though. We all do it ever so often.

 

[all24bits]

The guy with the $25 cables was just lucky enough to avoid perceptual bias for whatever reason. There's absolutely nothing in the natural world that indicates an audible difference between sensibly specced cables, besides the one you get from expectation bias. Seriously, it's not even up for debate.

Well, I've done blind tests with cables and I came out with accurate results every time. No, it wasn't in a laboratory setting and peer reviewed. It was in a living room with my friend administering the test between I2S/hdmi cables. And no, no one recorded it and there would have been no way to peer review the recording if I had. Again, it was literally just a matter of knowing what to listen to in the songs that I was extremely familiar with, with cables I was familiar with, on equipment I was familiar with. Not that hard if you invest time and energy into it.

 

[Killingbeans]

I'm actually really confused why people who thinks all DACs sound alike are hanging out discussing DACs that have no differences when they could just buy the top ASR rated DAC and be done with the hardware hobby/discussion for good.

Because we'd like to get the focus shifted towards the things that make an actual difference. Every single "high-end" company out there claims to be pushing audio technology further ahead, while further analysis nearly always shows that they are simply running around in circles or staring into a wall. Can we please get some real progress?

I never expect to hear differences in DACs. I go in with a blank mind with zero expectations on what to hear. What I hear is what gets presented to me. I do not go into a DAC listening session and expect to hear certain things that magically appear just as I expected to hear them.

That's really not how bias works... If it did work like that, things would be so much easier... but it doesn't.

 

[Reynaldo]

I have several iFi products and all with excellent quality.
I already had the Zen One Signature and today I'm using the iFi Neo DAC.
I already had several DACs, some are still here, but for my personal taste the iFi Neo DAC is the best.
What I always ask myself is, if all DACs work the same, practically have the same features, why do companies keep releasing new models?
In fact, there would no longer be any need for any kind of testing.

 

[Killingbeans]

Well, I've done blind tests with cables and I came out with accurate results every time. No, it wasn't in a laboratory setting and peer reviewed. It was in a living room with my friend administering the test between I2S/hdmi cables. And no, no one recorded it and there would have been no way to peer review the recording if I had. Again, it was literally just a matter of knowing what to listen to in the songs that I was extremely familiar with, with cables I was familiar with, on equipment I was familiar with. Not that hard if you invest time and energy into it.

Don't know what to say to that, other than it's physically impossible.

Although, if the test was repeated more well executed and showed statistical significance, I'd eat my hat.

 

[Killingbeans]

What I always ask myself is, if all DACs work the same, practically have the same features, why do companies keep releasing new models?

Because people buy them. Upgradetis is way, way more powerful than common sense

 

[all24bits]

Don't know what to say to that, other than it's physically impossible.

Although, if the test was repeated more well executed and showed statistical significance, I'd eat my hat.

It's not physically impossible. I did it. The guy was standing right there swapping cables and I started picking out differences in tonality, detail retrieval, how black the background was, the emphasis on different instruments, how defined certain things were, where they stood in the mix, etc. I couldn't see anything except the blacks of my eyelids. Each cable presented music in different ways.

 

[Purité Audio]

Literally fantastic.
Keith

 

[Killingbeans]

It's not physically impossible. I did it.

I'm not saying that it's physically impossible for you to hear differences. The physics of your brain chemistry most definitely allows you to hear things that aren't really there.

I'm saying that the physics of HDMI cables can't possibly be the cause of your impressions. It literally can't happen. Only if one or more of the cables were severely faulty*.

EDIT: *If one or more of the cables was of the "audiophile" variety, there's the risk that they weren't specced to industry standards, meaning that they might actually f¤¤k up the signal enough to do something audible. But that isn't exactly the kind of "virtues" we're discussing here.

The guy was standing right there swapping cables and I started picking out differences in tonality, detail retrieval, how black the background was, the emphasis on different instruments, how defined certain things were, where they stood in the mix, etc. I couldn't see anything except the blacks of my eyelids. Each cable presented music in different ways.

Clever Hans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

EDIT2: All of this is probably going to be moved to one of the dumpster fire threads

 

[Sal1950]

What I always ask myself is, if all DACs work the same, practically have the same features, why do companies keep releasing new models?

Ahhh, to sell you something ???

 

[all24bits]

I'm not saying that it's physically impossible for you to hear differences. The physics of your brain chemistry most definitely allows you to hear things that aren't really there.

I'm saying that the physics of HDMI cables can't possibly be the cause of your impressions. It literally can't happen. Only if one or more of the cables were severely faulty*.

EDIT: *If one or more of the cables was of the "audiophile" variety, there's the risk that they weren't specced to industry standards, meaning that they might actually f¤¤k up the signal enough to do something audible.

One cable clearly to my ears sounded the best. Now, which cable was "broken"? The lesser sounding one or the better one? Again, I couldn't tell which one was plugged in. My eyes were closed and the cable was behind a wall of equipment.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

One cable clearly to my ears sounded the best. Now, which cable was "broken"? The lesser sounding one or the better one? Again, I couldn't tell which one was plugged in. My eyes were closed and the cable was behind a wall of equipment.

You know. We hear since years from many people these claims you are making and they all passionately defend their impressions. Yet not a single one has passed a rigorous test nor has had a scientific explanation why there would be a difference.

You made the claim: please provide us with a controlled test or a scientifically replicable explanation otherwise it never happened. And you can save yourself the time posting.

 

[Killingbeans]

One cable clearly to my ears sounded the best. Now, which cable was "broken"? The lesser sounding one or the better one?

My bet would be that none of them was sufficiently faulty to be distinguishable. After all, an I2S stream is a walk in the park for just about any HDMI cable.

The worst thing about these cable swap tests is that they exceed the 3-4 seconds of echoic memory we have, making the whole exercise a moot point.

Again, I couldn't tell which one was plugged in. My eyes were closed and the cable was behind a wall of equipment.

Did you read about Clever Hans? You never once looked at the guy who was swapping the cables? He could very well have given you a "here comes the fancy cable" cue with subtle body language.