PS Audio FR20 speakers - First impressions

[Tobylq]

Shocking how deep some people have gone down the rabbit hole when he says stuff like that....

Sorry for opening a can of worms. My intention was to show what it looks like a speaker test rig where they can raise the speaker up in the middle of the room for testing and not about the FR20 vs FR30 comments. Clearly PS Audio has the ability to generate at least quasi-anechoic sweeps. Why don't they publish these?
I can see how the FR20's could be "pretty close" to the performance for the FR30's but have the feeling at high volumes the FR30's still will do a bit better.
For what is worth, I am still loving these FR20's

 

[KEFCarver]

Nice, well congrats on the new speakers. I’d love to hear these or the FR30’s!

About 3 weeks ago I was able to tour PS Audio with the Mrs and listen to the FR30's. I met everyone but Paul, and have to say I felt like a kid in a candy store. Nicest group of people who answered all my questions. The speaker designer Chris Brunehaver was great to speak with as well- so passionate. , I was polite and did not mention that I am "follower" of ASR and think that a lot of their products do not do much (the Power plant products in particular). The room that the have the FR30's in is acoustically treated with everything you can imagine, and they are power by their $30k/pair 600w/ BHK monoblocks, which of course are plugged into their Power plants, as are the PS Audio Preamp and DAC and streamer (not sure who made that). Our host controlled the tablet for the streamer and he gave me the volume control and said play as loud as I wanted. I had him play music that I use for my testing and I will say that the FR30's sound very nice, natural and easy to listen too. Oh, they do have a REL subwoofer hooked up to the system as they have a bass suckout in the room.... I thought the imaging/soundstage was good, and the only thing that stood out nicely would be what I would call a nice vertical dispersion. But, I am used to feeling a little bass in my listening chair when listening to music at normal volume (for me) and there was none of that with this system, and I mentioned that to the host. THey sound good, but not something I would add to my "maybe one day list". Of course, Audioquest cable risers were being used for both the XLR cables and the Speaker wires to keep them off the floor- our host commented that he did not think they did anything and I politely agreed (those cables probably cost $40k). The most surprising thing to me was that with the preamp's volume control turned off, I still heard hiss coming out of the speakers- not very loud, but still there..just like all the vintage gear I test... We were there a bit over 2hrs and I was so pleased with how they treated us, I mailed them a thank you card.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

About 3 weeks ago I was able to tour PS Audio with the Mrs and listen to the FR30's. I met everyone but Paul, and have to say I felt like a kid in a candy store. Nicest group of people who answered all my questions. The speaker designer Chris Brunehaver was great to speak with as well- so passionate. , I was polite and did not mention that I am "follower" of ASR and think that a lot of their products do not do much (the Power plant products in particular). The room that the have the FR30's in is acoustically treated with everything you can imagine, and they are power by their $30k/pair 600w/ BHK monoblocks, which of course are plugged into their Power plants, as are the PS Audio Preamp and DAC and streamer (not sure who made that). Our host controlled the tablet for the streamer and he gave me the volume control and said play as loud as I wanted. I had him play music that I use for my testing and I will say that the FR30's sound very nice, natural and easy to listen too. Oh, they do have a REL subwoofer hooked up to the system as they have a bass suckout in the room.... I thought the imaging/soundstage was good, and the only thing that stood out nicely would be what I would call a nice vertical dispersion. But, I am used to feeling a little bass in my listening chair when listening to music at normal volume (for me) and there was none of that with this system, and I mentioned that to the host. THey sound good, but not something I would add to my "maybe one day list". Of course, Audioquest cable risers were being used for both the XLR cables and the Speaker wires to keep them off the floor- our host commented that he did not think they did anything and I politely agreed (those cables probably cost $40k). The most surprising thing to me was that with the preamp's volume control turned off, I still heard hiss coming out of the speakers- not very loud, but still there..just like all the vintage gear I test... We were there a bit over 2hrs and I was so pleased with how they treated us, I mailed them a thank you card.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

This looks like PS Audio test rig

Yes, we have a lift/turntable rig that I can put about 10 ft in the air and do gated quasi-anechoic vertical/horizontal measurements.

The bearing/frame has a very high weight capability so I can do vertical polars with the speakers on their side (where the center of rotation isn't the center of mass). There are some reflections from the small platform/frame in this orientation so it's good enough for engineering use but not for necessarily publishing (though the horizontal polars are clear until pretty extreme angles where there are some reflections around the structure of the lift etc.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

There's no way FR30 is worth $10K more than FR20

Well, if you look at competing speakers, like moving from a Blade 2 meta to a Blade meta or from a Wilson Sasha DAW to Wilson Alexia V (only moving from 2 8" to an 8" and 10" (about a 20% increase in woofer area), B&W 802 to 801, they have similar or larger jumps in price.

In this price range, doubling the woofer complement, making a much larger speaker box adds significant cost. The benefit is lower bass distortion and 6 dB more deep bass output and people can decide if that's worth it in their setup. In general, companies sell a lot more of the "one step down" than the "flagship" model because people feel they're getting most of the complete design vision at a substantially lower cost.

We're roughly having the cost (from aspen FR20 to new FR10 compact towers) moving down to 2x6.5" woofers from 2x8" woofers (though we are also scaling the cost down in a couple of other areas (smaller midrange panel primarily)

 

[CtheArgie]

I still cannot believe that a $2,500 expense for “R&D” is considered excessive by Paul. If you are going to sell $30k speakers, plus the $20k and $10k models, I hoped that the R&D investment would be “generous“. I worked in a different industry, but I still remember from my MBA school days playing Markstrat how a low R&D investment resulted in less than ideal market success.
So Paul can have $40k wires (though he probably didn’t buy them) but not spend $2.5k in testing.
It tells me a lot.

 

[Ricardus]

I still cannot believe that a $2,500 expense for “R&D” is considered excessive by Paul. If you are going to sell $30k speakers, plus the $20k and $10k models, I hoped that the R&D investment would be “generous“. I worked in a different industry, but I still remember from my MBA school days playing Markstrat how a low R&D investment resulted in less than ideal market success.
So Paul can have $40k wires (though he probably didn’t buy them) but not spend $2.5k in testing.
It tells me a lot.

BAM!

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

I still cannot believe that a $2,500 expense for “R&D” is considered excessive by Paul. If you are going to sell $30k speakers, plus the $20k and $10k models, I hoped that the R&D investment would be “generous“. I worked in a different industry, but I still remember from my MBA school days playing Markstrat how a low R&D investment resulted in less than ideal market success.
So Paul can have $40k wires (though he probably didn’t buy them) but not spend $2.5k in testing.
It tells me a lot.

Well, it's not $2.5k once. I measure the speakers many times in the development of the drive units and refining the crossover designs etc. We did an NFS measurement on an FR20 prototype (for the $2.5K) but the bass level (below 150 Hz) was off by a couple dB (what appears to be a klippel measurement issue) and I later made a crossover tweak so I didn't publish it. I did link some of the measurements on our forum (that I linked in an earlier thread), including DI, ERDI, bass extension (measured grounds plane), polar maps etc., for those interested.
Link

I would like more R&D tools for sure those, so you're welcome to lobby my management or help fund the success of this effort by buying speakers

 

[CtheArgie]

Well, it's not $2.5k once. I measure the speakers many times in the development of the drive units and refining the crossover designs etc. We did an NFS measurement on an FR20 prototype (for the $2.5K) but the bass level (below 150 Hz) was off by a couple dB, and I later made a crossover tweak so I didn't publish it. I did link some of the measurements on our forum (that I linked in an earlier thread), including DI, ERDI, bass extension (measured grounds plane), polar maps etc., for those interested.
Link

I would like more R&D tools for sure those, so you're welcome to lobby my management or help fund the success of this effort by buying speakers

Again, R&D investment in “audiophile” equipment appears to be wishful thinking. Paul wants to position against Magico without spending the money. But he will spend on Octave which will rarely produce a return.

It is his money but it tells me his values. Maybe it’s a lesson for you too.

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

Again, R&D investment in “audiophile” equipment appears to be wishful thinking. Paul wants to position against Magico without spending the money. But he will spend on Octave which will rarely produce a return.

It is his money but it tells me his values. Maybe it’s a lesson for you too.

Well, Octave is a passion project and not really governed by normal business logic. Would I like additional investment in the future of our core products and loudspeaker division division instead? sure. but we can still do some of both. The company is as much his hobby as it is a successful business and he’s very interested in recording these days. We are working on a ton of projects and have a rather large staff, so an investment is being made.

Do I think our speaker offering is still very competitive and will continue to improve with additional models and product generations? yes! Also, so far, I have only seen one pair returned (even though we try to make that process as easy as possible) and do people seem pretty happy (including the OP). I’m sure even a magico won’t please everyone or be the end of the road for buying/auditioning loudspeakers.

 

[CtheArgie]

Well, Octave is a passion project and not really governed by normal business logic. Would I like additional investment in the future of our core products and loudspeaker division division instead? sure. but we can still do some of both. The company is as much his hobby as it is a successful business and he’s very interested in recording these days. We are working on a ton of projects and have a rather large staff, so an investment is being made.

Do I think our speaker offering is still very competitive and will continue to improve with additional models and product generations? yes! Also, so far, I have only seen one pair returned (even though we try to make that process as easy as possible) and do people seem pretty happy (including the OP). I’m sure even a magico won’t please everyone or be the end of the road for buying/auditioning loudspeakers.

Again, HIS business decisions given it is HIS company. I am not arguing if he is making the RIGHT decisions.

I am only saying that they appear as "classical" issues, as taught in business school, of decisions made by entrepreneurs or family businesses. His age also suggests that being entertained is more important. His choice of words, when he explains things, also suggests a less than "R&D" frame of mind.

Do you believe in cable elevators? Or is it like the person above who said that the "host" didn't? Fancy fuses? Regenerators? So far, you appeared quite science driven while posting here.

Lastly, I don't think that returns are a proper measure. Most people that pay $30K for speakers tend to think very highly of themselves and will have a hard time admitting "errors".

 

[amirm]

Do you believe in cable elevators? Or is it like the person above who said that the "host" didn't? Fancy fuses? Regenerators? So far, you appeared quite science driven while posting here.

Let's not put Chris on the spot like this please. Let's use his presence to learn about what he is doing.

 

[Tobylq]

Again, HIS business decisions given it is HIS company. I am not arguing if he is making the RIGHT decisions.

I am only saying that they appear as "classical" issues, as taught in business school, of decisions made by entrepreneurs or family businesses. His age also suggests that being entertained is more important. His choice of words, when he explains things, also suggests a less than "R&D" frame of mind.

Do you believe in cable elevators? Or is it like the person above who said that the "host" didn't? Fancy fuses? Regenerators? So far, you appeared quite science driven while posting here.

Lastly, I don't think that returns are a proper measure. Most people that pay $30K for speakers tend to think very highly of themselves and will have a hard time admitting "errors".

"appear as "classical" issues, as taught in business school, of decisions made by entrepreneurs or family businesses"

I don't know Paul and have no need to defend him. IMHO practicing "classical theory as taught in business schools" for the last 40 years has left American industry in this country in decay. Paul and his company represent the epitome of the American dream and entrepreneurship, hard to question the success of a company that has managed to stay in business for 50 years with the original owner still guiding the ship. How many audio companies have been sold multiple times and gutted and raided ending up being a ghost of its former self during the last 50 years?

Did I mention I am really enjoying these FR20's ?

 

[CtheArgie]

"appear as "classical" issues, as taught in business school, of decisions made by entrepreneurs or family businesses"

I don't know Paul and have no need to defend him. IMHO practicing "classical theory as taught in business schools" for the last 40 years has left American industry in this country in decay. Paul and his company represent the epitome of the American dream and entrepreneurship, hard to question the success of a company that has managed to stay in business for 50 years with the original owner still guiding the ship. How many audio companies have been sold multiple times and gutted and raided ending up being a ghost of its former self during the last 50 years?

Did I mention I am really enjoying these FR20's ?

Again, that is your impression.

Paul made a specific decision to "minimize" investment in R&D fro his speakers. Or to "penny-pinch" the R&D, as clearly described by @Chris Brunhaver. I have nothing personal against those decisions made by Paul for HIS company. He also decided and elected to "invest" in Octave recording instead of R&D.

These decisions are very common in family businesses but, as you state, they happen in big corporations too. I have personally seen this many times in my career. It becomes easy for "senior management" to cut these expenses. And it is not easy to explain to them or show them the downside. But when something bad happens, the "I told you so" doesn't help much in your career.mIt is more common to observe this when senior management comes from the "finance" side. But they are not unique.

My point, is that if you truly want to "compete" in this arena long term, you need good bases. Duck tape and wires don't cut it.

 

[Tobylq]

Again, that is your impression.

Paul made a specific decision to "minimize" investment in R&D fro his speakers. Or to "penny-pinch" the R&D, as clearly described by @Chris Brunhaver. I have nothing personal against those decisions made by Paul for HIS company. He also decided and elected to "invest" in Octave recording instead of R&D.

These decisions are very common in family businesses but, as you state, they happen in big corporations too. I have personally seen this many times in my career. It becomes easy for "senior management" to cut these expenses. And it is not easy to explain to them or show them the downside. But when something bad happens, the "I told you so" doesn't help much in your career.mIt is more common to observe this when senior management comes from the "finance" side. But they are not unique.

My point, is that if you truly want to "compete" in this arena long term, you need good bases. Duck tape and wires don't cut it.

I would like this thread to stay on the FR20's not on PS Audio, I do respect your point of view, however you completely missed the point of my answer.
Precisely by avoiding doing what you were representing as the "right" way to conduct business (throw money left and right), he as managed not only to stay in business for 50 years but to retain ownership and control of the company and now to have the luxury of pursuing his product development dreams, Octave records or what have you notwithstanding! That's to be admired in my book. My respects to "senior management" and "PS Audio family business". I just wish Paul can stay healthy and continue to run his company for many years to come.
No body forced my to purchase the FR20's- Honestly it was a leap of faith. The only reason I pulled the trigger was their 30 day return policy. So glad I got them.
These FR20's are a hidden gem and the best kept secret. I am still evaluating the speakers, hopefully one day I can put together a summary of what I like and don't like, there is a lot to these speakers, I think they made all the right trade offs and hit the sweet spot with the FR20's.

 

[CtheArgie]

@Tobylq . It is quite simple. If I decide to buy a $20k product, or whatever amount, I want to know about the company that makes it.

I discovered ASR when I needed to replace an amplifier that had died. I have speakers that have very low impedance so I needed some specific amps. I was ready to buy a PS Audio Stellar and read they were based on ICE amp modules. So I started to research what was an ICE module. I discovered Hypex and Purifi, but most importantly, I discovered ASR! I must admit that my "audio life" changed as a result.

Since, I decided NOT to buy a product that is not thoroughly reviewed or provides a significant amount of data, like the ones that Amir does, or Erin. Debunking all the audiphoolery was a bit painful to my ego, but I am so happy that I reached this position. I was relieved that I was prepared to CHANGE my mind and admit it.

Chris mentioned that he had to "make changes" on the speakers AFTER selling them. He mentioned his limitations on research, and they continue to NOT provide data on their speakers. I don't care about the 30 day issue. Psychology tells you it works in their advantage.

If you are so happy with them, send them to Amir or Erin for their report. And I am glad that you "like" them. Different people have different values.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

@Tobylq . It is quite simple. If I decide to buy a $20k product, or whatever amount, I want to know about the company that makes it.

I discovered ASR when I needed to replace an amplifier that had died. I have speakers that have very low impedance so I needed some specific amps. I was ready to buy a PS Audio Stellar and read they were based on ICE amp modules. So I started to research what was an ICE module. I discovered Hypex and Purifi, but most importantly, I discovered ASR! I must admit that my "audio life" changed as a result.

Since, I decided NOT to buy a product that is not thoroughly reviewed or provides a significant amount of data, like the ones that Amir does, or Erin. Debunking all the audiphoolery was a bit painful to my ego, but I am so happy that I reached this position. I was relieved that I was prepared to CHANGE my mind and admit it.

Chris mentioned that he had to "make changes" on the speakers AFTER selling them. He mentioned his limitations on research, and they continue to NOT provide data on their speakers. I don't care about the 30 day issue. Psychology tells you it works in their advantage.

If you are so happy with them, send them to Amir or Erin for their report. And I am glad that you "like" them. Different people have different values.

Eloquent post. Thank you!

 

[Chris Brunhaver]

@Tobylq . It is quite simple. If I decide to buy a $20k product, or whatever amount, I want to know about the company that makes it.

I discovered ASR when I needed to replace an amplifier that had died. I have speakers that have very low impedance so I needed some specific amps. I was ready to buy a PS Audio Stellar and read they were based on ICE amp modules. So I started to research what was an ICE module. I discovered Hypex and Purifi, but most importantly, I discovered ASR! I must admit that my "audio life" changed as a result.

Since, I decided NOT to buy a product that is not thoroughly reviewed or provides a significant amount of data, like the ones that Amir does, or Erin. Debunking all the audiphoolery was a bit painful to my ego, but I am so happy that I reached this position. I was relieved that I was prepared to CHANGE my mind and admit it.

Chris mentioned that he had to "make changes" on the speakers AFTER selling them. He mentioned his limitations on research, and they continue to NOT provide data on their speakers. I don't care about the 30 day issue. Psychology tells you it works in their advantage.

If you are so happy with them, send them to Amir or Erin for their report. And I am glad that you "like" them. Different people have different values

I wouldn't say that we're making changes after selling. Inevitably, things pop up in QC and you just need to monitor and tweak your assembly processes on drivers and things.

I am a development engineer and not a researcher but I do have a personal interesting in ongoing R&D with transducers (some of which I've shared here).

I can't complain much because I see that Andrew Jones has made a serious of extremely well received products with an even more modest setup, just a small portion of a warehouse with a piece of truss as a stand for polar measurements (and great intuition and understanding of the core physics and measurements involved).

Anyway, as the product designer, thanks for the feedback and your impressions and taking the chance to try the aspen FR20's.

 

[Ricardojoa]

so the top driver is actually the mid driver.

 

[Geert]

Chris doing some explaining.