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Atoll DAC200 Signature - Review & Measurements (DAC)

BR52

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As far as I can see they use transistors instead of Audio OP-Amps in the output stage combined with some pots for tuning :oops:
So what you measured is the the "House Sound" they like to deliver and no Error ;)

Best DrCWO
"House sound" it's ok. The published measurement data, will not fit together with reality.
There are some legal rules for advertising in Europe, it can be..........
And with the simple transistor stages it need a great genius engineer to reach the data as advertised.
 
OP
VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

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Read me carefully : I made no assertion, just a question.
Oh, I read you very carefully, and I want to know precisely what you implied here:
Do we know each other? Something you have in mind based on my previous reviews or contributions?
n any scientific measurement paper, there is always a risk of error or bias
There is indeed. That is why repeatability exists. Do you think that I just plug the product one time, launch my tests and call it done? Then, you are very, very wrong about my work. Bias? My instrumentation has no bias, I regret. Numbers have no bias either. Would you imply that REW RTA from @JohnPM , Multitone from @pkane , ADI-2/4 RPO SE from @MC_RME and Cosmos from @IVX are all biased software and hardware instruments?
At the end of the papers, there is a warranty of independence.
What do you want to know? I am not quite an anonymous member here, in case you missed it. I am a professional social worker (I know quite a bit about ethics and integrity, FYI), out of any business regarding Audio. Except as a customer, of course.
I have yet some plans to work in that field someday. The day it happens, I will tell everybody and ask ASR moderation to get the appropriate banner...

One measurement by a sole experimenter is not enough.
Sure, it is not. Again, will you measure a second sample? Will you buy one and send it to @amirm ?
 
Last edited:

sarumbear

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I don't even speak about blind followers : who else has listened to this DAC ?
Why do we want to listen to objectively judge the unit?
 

AdamG

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How many biases here ?
(apart for a deficient model)
Friends or commercial links of the author ??? Paris is a small town, at least regarding hifi.
Someone else must consider a test of another model of this brand, with rigourous methodology, before sending scuds. e. g. DAC300
I don't even speak about blind followers : who else has listened to this DAC ?
Making blatant and unsubstantiated allegations about a Member Reviewer who has worked hard to earn a very trustworthy reputation is unacceptable and uncalled for. You don’t like the review results and your feelings are hurt. Too bad! The Truth is the Truth and @VintageFlanker has done the work to substantiate his claims of performance. You have proven nothing except your ignorance.
 

AdamG

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Oh, I read you very carefully, and I want to know precisely what you implied here:
Do we know each other? Something you have in mind based on my previous reviews or contributions?

There is indeed. That is why repeatability exists. Do you think that I just plug the product one time, lunch my tests and call it done? Then, you are very, very wrong about my work. Bias? My instrumentation has no bias, I regret. Numbers have no bias either. Would you imply that REW RTA from @JohnPM , Multitone from @pkane , ADI-2/4 RPO SE from @MC_RME and Cosmos from @IVX are all biased software and hardware instruments?

What do you want to know? I am not quite an anonymous member here, in case you missed it. I am a professional social worker (I know quite a bit about ethics and integrity, FYI), out of any business regarding Audio. Except as a customer, of course.
I have yet some plans to work in that field someday. The day it happens, I will tell everybody and ask ASR moderation to get the appropriate banner...


Sure, it is not. Again, will you measure a second sample? Will you buy one and send one to @amirm ?
He won’t be responding to you in this thread. My apologies but I had to cut this conversation short! ;)
 

_thelaughingman

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He won’t be responding to you in this thread. My apologies but I had to cut this conversation short! ;)
Glad you stopped his trap!
 

hyfynut

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Atoll DAC200 Signature - Review & Measurements
View attachment 282201

Hey folks,

Planned for a while, finally comes my first review about an Atoll product, and the first extensive measurements of any Atoll DAC to date. For those who are not familiar with the name, Atoll Electronique, while not widespread worldwide, is an extremely popular manufacturer here in France. They initially started to design amplifiers by the end of the 90's, then the brand extended their offering with CD Players, DACs and Streamers.

So, why the interest? Being not that old, I hear about Atoll since the beginning of my Hi-Fi journey. Based on my own observations of the market, I personally feel that it remains somewhat a polarizing brand, along with both faithful customers and haters (I am neither). The first category seems to always point their purchase decision with one major argument: it is Made In France. Yes, it is. Their entire line of products is assembled at Brecey, Normandie. Having Hi-Fi electronics designed and built local, that are respectively priced to remain competitive against big(ger) names like Cambridge, Marantz, NAD or Rotel, is certainly a good thing, and I understand those who want to reward it. Yet, the place of manufacturing is nowhere near a guarantee of good design, nor actual performance. And that is where I feel that objective analysis is needed. If Atoll manages to design and build products locally, and if they also perform great, then it would be a great story to tell !

The DAC200 Signature, reviewed today, is their second most expensive DAC, priced at 1790€. Then comes the DAC300 at 2595€. In this day and age, these are far from cheap offerings, and we are right to expect stellar levels of performance from them to be competitive. This particular sample has been bought a few days ago by a friend (Mikycoud on other forums) and kindly drop-shipped to me for the purpose of this review. The DAC200 integrates an ESS ES9028 PRO D/A chip, and I am glad to see the brand communicating about specs. On the other hand, I feel kind of afraid that they have just taken the specs from the ESS datasheet and call it done: "-120dB THD+N, 133dB Dynamic, 129dB SNR". Sounds good, doesn't it? I want you to keep these numbers in a corner of your head for what comes next...​

View attachment 282202

The Atoll DAC200 Signature comes in an elegant and quite huge chassis, in fact as big as some integrated amplifiers. It is 440mm wide, as is the rest of Atoll amplifiers and DACs (expecting more compact products). It is relatively heavy for its size (5Kg) and build quality is mostly good. To nitpick a bit, while the front machined aluminium plate is beautifully finished, the rest of the chassis seems to be made of sheet steel and somewhat lacks rigidity.

The buttons also feel a bit loose on touch. You have most of the controls needed for a DAC, from left to right: Input select, filters settings, volume control and standby. You may notice the circuit around the screen area because of the lighting on pictures, but it really appears to be all black under regular light conditions. I like the display, since it offers decent contrast and visibility from good distances. At last, you also have some hardly noticeable headphones 3.5mm output beneath the settings buttons. The DAC200 also comes with a classic remote control, designed to be paired with other products of the brand.​

PS: Per "popular" request, both front and back pics are now displayed under regular light conditions.

View attachment 282203

Do you see that? Yes, it is quite uncommon on any DAC to have nine digital inputs available! There are three coaxial and three toslink inputs, which is quite welcomed when you have several digital sources (TV, BD Player, Streamer, CD Transport, Consoles etc.) to deal with. I would like to see it more often, and I praise Atoll for this. Then, there is some regular USB-B input, AES/EBU, and at last a Bluetooth antenna. It does not say which codec are supported (more on that later).

The rest is pretty regular: XLR and RCA analog outputs, and both optical and coaxial digital outputs. At last, I have a little remark about the markings, tho. The fact that these are beneath connectors make them very difficult to see when looking from above.​



Measurements

Disclaimer: Measurements you are about to see are not intended to be as precise or extensive than what you get from a 30k€ AP. There is obviously both hardware and software limitations here, so not quite apples to apples comparison with Amir's testing. Still, this data is enough to have a pretty good idea if the gear is bad or not, stellar, broken, or sub-par...

- Instruments : RME ADI-2/4 PRO SE. E1DA Cosmos ADC (Grade B), Minimum phase filter. E1DA Cosmos APU 60dB preamp is used for DR measurements. Output voltage is measured separately, using a DMM with a 0dBFS 1kHz tone.
- Software : REW V5.20.14, Multitone Loopback Analyzer 1.0.80 and RMAA 6.4.5 PRO,
- Method : 8 runs for each test, then I choose the closest to the average. Bandwidth and sampling rate to be specified for each test.

The Atoll DAC200 has both a fixed output setting (called "bypass") and a variable one, with 80 volume steps. I will start measuring the first, through XLR balanced output and USB input.​

View attachment 282288

Atoll DAC200 - Summary

Tests
Results (L & R)
Rating
Noise Level (REW)
-115.2dBA​
Very Good
Dynamic Range (REW)​
112.6dB​
Very Good
THD (REW)​
0.03890%​
Very Poor
THD+Noise / SINAD (REW)
-68.2dB
Very Poor
IMD SMPTE (REW)​
-55.7dB​
Terrible
Stereo crosstalk (RMAA)​
-114.6dB​
Very Good
IMD+Noise @10 kHz (RMAA)​
0.038%​
Very Poor
Multitone 32 TD+N (Multitone)​
-63.3dB​
Very Poor


Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (SINAD) - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282277


Frequency Response - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282273


Noise Level - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282274


Dynamic Range - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282275


Intermodulation Distortion SMPTE - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282276


Intermodulation Distortion SMPTE Versus Level - 24b/44.1kHz

View attachment 282278


THD Versus Frequency - 24b/48kHz
View attachment 282330



Jitter - 24b/48kHz
View attachment 282279


Multitone 32 - 24b/192kHz
View attachment 282280


Intermodulation Distortion + Noise (sweep) - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282281


Crosstalk - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282282
Alright. Seems like we got a lot to talk about here. What the heck is going on exactly? Apart from Crosstalk or raw Dynamic Range/SNR, (which by the way are good but not quite what I would expect from a DAC in this price range), everything else is simply wasted.

I start with my first concern: Why is the company even advertising "-120dB" THD+N, while we get -68dB at the end? Do people at Atoll simply believe that an ES9028 PRO will always perform at its best, regardless of the implementation? Do they even know how to measure THD+N to begin with? I do not feel sorry to ask, when I look at this complete failure. Speaking about it, did you know that bad measuring products are more time-consuming to review than ones that perform right on specs? Why? Because, I have to spend a hard time trying to understand what is wrong here and there. Is my ADC clipping? After trying several levels from both inputs and outputs, it appears to be not (both Cosmos and ADI-2/4 PRO). I see in the manual that Atoll advises to be careful about the phase. Well, I reversed my Schuko plug one side or the other and got the exact same mess over and over. Are we dealing with some ground loops, regardless of the so-called balanced signal? Performance is the same using toslink (more on that latter). Everything led me back to the common denominator: a simply bad measuring product.

Apart from THD+N, the Intermodulation Distortion is acting crazy, with plenty of grass between both fundamental frequencies. The IMD Versus Level test does show the presence of ESS Hump, before growing up way too early. The THD Versus Frequency is a funny one: For no reason, it starts to perform (in some unremarkable way) from 8kHz, before clipping completely at 22kHz. In the same league, the IMD Vs Frequency (swept CCIF) behaves the opposite way it should, while slopping down until 20kHz. I cannot believe, in any shape or form, that this product is performing that way on purpose. Even when trying to understand how it could have been designed that way to please subjective listening, I am not able to find any valid reason. In my book, it is just broken. Period.

This first bunch of tests has been performed with the fixed line out, that is, at 4.6V, slightly higher than regular 4.0-4.2V XLR I am used to measure. What happens when I turn down the variable output by a couple of step?​

Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (SINAD) - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282323
For some reason, the results are slightly better with reduced volume. Do not get me wrong, it is still acting poorly nonetheless. But this already rises some questions: why is the bypass output, advertised (supposedly) as the best setting as a line out would actually be... worse?
Let's move to S/PDIF. I just wanted to make sure that not only USB-B input (or overall XMOS implementation) would be flawed over Coaxial and Toslink input. It does not seem to be the case, since S/PDIF performs equally bad:​

Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (SINAD) - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282319
SINAD did not change much, while being a touch lower. At least, it is cohesive in that regard. Maybe, Jitter could behave differently...​

Jitter - 24b/48kHz
View attachment 282324

Nope. The good news here is that both Coaxial and Optical are performing the same each other, and virtually very similar to USB. The bad news is that all three offer far from acceptable performance.

I also measured (in digital domain) the Coaxial and Toslink output through my ADI-2/4 PRO, hoping that not all would be messed-up. The Atoll DAC200 cannot miss this one, can it?​


Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (SINAD) - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282328

Phew! This is the first thing so far that the DAC200 is doing right. What you see here is typical digital performance of what I may capture out of my S/PDIF interface (should ideally be around 141dB SINAD, but it is not related to the Atoll). But, (yes, there is a "but")...

Note: I cannot understand why, nor that if it should be activated somewhere in settings, but both S/PDIF outputs do not work when running USB input ! I have never experienced such a thing with any product with digital outputs I tested so far. Even when using Bluetooth input, digital outputs work normally. Speaking about Bluetooth...​


Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (SINAD) - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282325

I found somewhat funny that Bluetooth (By the way limited to standard SBC Codec, which is a pity) almost reaches the performance of what you would get wired. In fairness, it is not that this specific performance is particularly "good" by any means (it is indeed what to expect from digital SBC performance), but more likely that others inputs are so bad that they are just a hair better than the weakest BT Codec around. Quite a shame, indeed.

Well, could things be even worse at this point? Yes, they can. We still need to find out the performance, unbalanced....

RCA
View attachment 282305


Atoll DAC200 - RCA Summary
Tests
XLR
RCA
Output Voltage @1Khz
4.664Vrms​
2.346Vrms​
Noise level (REW)​
-115.2dBA​
-97.7dBA​
Dynamic range, dB (REW)​
112.6dB​
82.6dB​
THD (REW)​
0.03890%​
0.11350%​
THD+N (REW)​
-68.2dB​
-58.9dB​
IMD SMPTE (REW)​
-55.7dB​
-48.8dB​
Stereo crosstalk (RMAA)​
-114.6dB​
-91.1dB​
IMD+Noise @10kHz (RMAA)​
0.038%​
0.053%​
Multitone 32 TD+N (Multitone)​
-63.3dB​
-66.3dB​

You have the whole picture in the tabs. Performance drops quite significantly over single ended outputs in all regards (but Multitone). The first victim is obviously SINAD:

Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (SINAD) - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282299
OK... I did not think RCA could be more flawed, yet it is, and by quite a margin. Now, the second harmonic is dominant, and I could not imagine this has been done on purpose whatsoever. Why, then, XLR would not share the same harmonic profile?

You get a lot of hums at 50, 100 and 200Hz. These are so strong that some may think about the DAC200 to be sensitive to ground loops. Well, it would be very unlikely to be the case. First, these tests are done through a battery-powered laptop and with galvanic isolation over USB (Topping HS-01, also running itself on separated battery). Second, I get the exact same nightmare results when using optical... Besides, there would be no excuse, anyway, for any DAC in this price range to not be immunized against this kind of issues.

Things are getting even worse with IMD:​


Intermodulation Distortion SMPTE - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282300

No need to comment on this: It is a complete mess, with uncontrolled distortion all over the spectrum.

Multitone 32 - 24b/192kHz
View attachment 282302

Strangely, RCA Multitone is displayed as "better" than XLR, or at least, when just looking at raw TD+N number. In reality, the hum at 100Hz is still dominant and has no excuse to be that strong in this specific test. You can observe the strange shapes (aliasing?) in the N+D floor, that I personally did not witness in any Multitone graph so far.

Note: The 3.5mm jack headphones output gave me the same results as the RCA outs (exact same SINAD and output voltage for both Right and Left channels). My guess would be that there is no dedicated circuit or any "amp" to speak about, as it seems to share the same path as SE outputs. Considering how bad it is already, I did not bother to investigate any further...​
Atoll does not communicate much about any dedicated preamp output stage/circuit. I then assume that we are dealing with regular digital attenuation from the ESS DAC. While we should expect deterioration of THD+N when the level moves away from 0dBr, the DAC200 behaves... differently:​

THD+N Versus Level

Volume Level
Output Voltage @1kHz
THD+N
80/80
4.664Vrms
-68.2dB
78/80
4.161Vrms
-70.4dB​
75/80​
3.502Vrms​
-73.6dB​
70/80​
2.626Vrms​
-78.8dB​
60/80​
1.477Vrms​
-89.0dB​
50/80​
0.831Vrms​
-93.6dB​
40/80​
0.312Vrms​
-87.8dB​
30/80​
0.098Vrms​
-78.4dB​


Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (SINAD) - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282310
I do not understand how the DAC200 works on that field... Maybe there are different analog stages regarding of volume, or maybe the performance is simply random. Surprisingly, we almost get half-decent results when using the 50/80 volume step, that comes with some 93.6dB SINAD. Infinitely better that what we have seen so far. Needless to say, it still is unremarkable, not only for the class, but you would not want some weak 0.8Vrms signal as your regular DAC output. But ultimately, yes, the DAC200 is doing a better job as a preamp than as a DAC.


I was still wondering if, perhaps, filters would have any impact on the performance, since I have another product next to be reviewed that shows a few dB difference in THD+N depending on the Filter setting. Sure, it should absolutely not be the case in any competent product, but maybe the Standard filter could be part of the issue here.

No. Each filter measure the same, as they should. Of course, only Frequency Response acts differently, as displayed below (same amplitude for each FR, separated):​


Frequency Response - 24b/44.1kHz
View attachment 282322

That is all, folks. I think we do have more than needed data at this point.


Conclusions
What could have happened here? So far, I would set up three hypotheses :

1) The DAC200 Signature performs exactly as it should. Atoll designed and tweaked it only by ears and finds that it sounds accordingly to what they wanted to. Then, I wonder why they are publishing any performance specs at all. By the way, all of them are plain wrong. THD+N, SNR and DR certainly are. In fact, even output voltage is: they say "2.25Vrms", while we get 4.66V with XLR and 2.34V through RCA. 2) They wanted to design a device, performing as advertised, but they simply have no clue about how to engineer it. Pity, then, not to mention at that price... 3) This particular unit I have my hands on is faulty. Honestly, I do not buy it, but... Then, I wonder how such a thing would have happened. How a 1800€ DAC would be able to leave the factory without any care for quality control? I do see in their published Manufacturing Process that they seem to check the quality control by... listening? I have no issue with that, but, would you guys at Atoll care to also measure? Definitely you should.

Time for my two cents: This is the worst DAC I ever measured, regardless of the price and class. Period. The DAC200 Signature is acting way off its own specifications, and I find no excuse whatsoever that could explain it. In a perfect world, local manufacturing, if paired with competent design, should be an assurance of an actually good product to buy. In that case, it is not, since it seems like the second requirement is lacking. What a bummer.​

Flanker rating: Failing Grade
It would be highly beneficial to have the product category and the price listed at the very beginning of the review. Thanks.
 

TonyJZX

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this is a gorgeous looking device... i mean casework is... 'bon'

and i did linger too long on the digital outs (on a dac?)

what are they implying? maybe one can put an SU-1 on the end before it hits the preamp? only $80....

Atoll probably spend $80 on that display alone!
 

andrewjohn007

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Excellent review! Atoll needs to bring you on board, at least as a consultant.
 

JRG

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In these cases I always ask myself the same question.
Did they do it this badly on purpose, or is it that they just don't know how to do it better?

Usually the excuse in these cases is that they have searched for a specific "sound signature", that in the design they have been guided by ear and not by cold instruments and measurements, and all that audiophile claptrap.

But most likely they just don't know how to do it right, or they don't put the attention and resources into doing it right.
 

Music1969

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Quite a few things, really ;) : Suited input impedance to match more DUTs. IMD VS Level without Hump of its own. Flatter Frequency Response with most DUTs I tested. Depending of the DUT output voltages you are dealing with, the RME could also be more precise, or closest to 0dBFS. Thanks to its Auto Ref Level, you know immediately which step to use (need sometimes adjustment to prevent clipping). Overall, better performance for measuring single ended signals in my experience. Better performance by quite a margin for lowest signals (because of the 1dBu-0.87Vrms lowest input sensitivity VS 1.7Vrms for Cosmos). Ability to perform measurements in digital domain (loopback recorder)... And last but not least, you got a display to observe what is going on when measuring.
Thanks! All makes sense
 

SkyTrax79

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From a company like this, I'm not that surprised by the results. It's the kind of company that their reference in sound quality is vinyl records and tube amplifiers. At least those results are somewhat better .
 

CedarX

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Audium, the German distributor of Atoll, has a webpage which indexes reviews of Atoll products by titles of the German hifi press, of which two of them, Stereoplay and Audio, do publish measurements made with an Audio Precision.

I suggest to download those reviews and check the measurements : https://vertrieb.audium.com/tests

It is obvious that the distortion spectrum of Atoll's electronics is consistent whatever the product, be it DAC or analogue amplifier, and that it correlates well with VintageFlanker's measurements.

It is thus also obvious that this pattern of harmonic distortion (and the consequences of this level of non-linearity, such as intermodulation) is a byproduct of the design of the analogue stage.
Although Atoll may target a house "sound signature", they don't really brag about it, unless it's what they simply call "high-end" o_O

You are probably right on your comment about byproduct of the design of the analogue stage: discrete output stages with NO feedback...

Screenshot 2023-05-01 193651.jpg
 

TonyJZX

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i appreciate when people like OP try to come to terms with what the numbers say

when you see these numbers you try to understand how it comes to this conclusion

i would contrast this to the much cited SMSL SU-1 review... there's not much to say, there's no need to say anything, the numbers are... incontrovertible

and when this Atoll dac pushes out these numbers then there is a slew of "just asking questions" as if sacred cows are being slaughtered

and as OP alludes to, there's no excuse anywhere... its incompetence... its just at what stage you want to assign blame... is it qc or design? is it both

Why is this incompetence anywhere for this amount of money? it just seemed like they sold this on the "just trust me bro" premise and never expected anyone to bench it... just like Hegel?

it also casts a pall on their entire product line... just like Hegel?
 

JSmith

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Why use the RME?
Its ADC works great for measurements actually. With a few extras (like maybe an autoranger and a notch filter) it can actually do slightly better than an AP. However one has to control it manually during the measurements, so it's not as automatic as an AP. For occasional measurements it is quite useful in that regard.
Paris is a small town, at least regarding hifi.
I'm glad the majority of your posts were removed... this is bordering on a threat. Very poor form.
"House sound" it's ok. The published measurement data, will not fit together with reality.
There are some legal rules for advertising in Europe, it can be..........
Yes I think Atoll need to urgently revise their quoted specifications, as it's nothing short of misleading customers. Fine, have a "house sound" full of distortion, but be honest with the customers about what they are purchasing.


JSmith
 

PenguinMusic

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Hi,

As far as I am concerned, I have had the occasion to listen to some Atoll products in several Hi-Fi Auditoriums in a smal town called Paris even though my wildest dream would be to listen to it in a part of France called "Limousin" and it's major city Limoges...

Anyways, I was always more or less interested to give those devices a listen as french press raved about them.

Each time I gave them a listen I was disappointed.

Maybe now there is an explanation as to why I was disappointed ?


So thanks @VintageFlanker for explaining objectively something that I suspected subjectively :)
 

TonyJZX

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i suspect that companies that are the thin edge of the wedge, even though they may be technically competant, are very resistant to takeover by huge multinationals, unless your product has the 'zeitgeist' (McIntosh has the 'zeitgeist')

does anyone BIG want to buy atoll? or diavelet? i dont want to pick on the french but if your product isnt likely to have a mass market audience OR have some synergies with an existing product line then why would a conglomo want you?
 
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