Grid Storage Systems for Renewable Energy - Technology and Projects (No Politics)

[Blumlein 88]

Don’t think you read my point very well on city temperatures they are always higher in a city than in the surrounding rural areas. As we have seen EV batteries are far less effective in colder temperatures. Due to their size and fire risk they will never been installed in densely populated urban locations. Try reading the article someone referenced in a previous post, written by a committee working for the Government of California. Technology only works in the long term when it’s proven to be cost effective, reliable and environmentally an improvement. Will the use of EVs improve air quality absolutely but at what long term environmental cost?

About your last sentence I have one thing to say.........look at how the automobile took over. It initially was too expensive for most people, not very reliable and not exactly environmentally an improvement (well maybe in cities overcome with horse dung). Talk about your long term environmental cost. In time it was refined just like the current transformation will be. I am also sure some unforeseen consequences will occur. That is how things work.

As for whatever California gov't says, heck there is nothing I can get from California that does not warn me of a cancer risk. The loonies really did finally take over. If California has its way it will become relatively bereft of energy it needs.

City vs rural temperatures............come on..........there is some small difference. Not enough to say you can never use large batteries there. They'll figure out the size and fire risk to either keep it just outside the city or learn how to make it safe. It is not like they have to be 50 miles outside a city to have some safety space. Now I'm less sure big battery storage will become a big thing for cities. It might or might be a niche.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

About your last sentence I have one thing to say.........look at how the automobile took over. It initially was too expensive for most people, not very reliable and not exactly environmentally an improvement (well maybe in cities overcome with horse dung). Talk about your long term environmental cost. In time it was refined just like the current transformation will be. I am also sure some unforeseen consequences will occur. That is how things work.

As for whatever California gov't says, heck there is nothing I can get from California that does not warn me of a cancer risk. The loonies really did finally take over. If California has its way it will become relatively bereft of energy it needs.

City vs rural temperatures............come on..........there is some small difference. Not enough to say you can never use large batteries there. They'll figure out the size and fire risk to either keep it just outside the city or learn how to make it safe. It is not like they have to be 50 miles outside a city to have some safety space. Now I'm less sure big battery storage will become a big thing for cities. It might or might be a niche.

You’re right California is (well) California known for not upgrading its infrastructure. Yet you would expect the opposite from them when it comes to climate change. They were quite damning in the opposite direction to what I expected. In winter city ambient temperatures in colder climates are generally several degrees warmer than in surrounding rural areas. Better storage systems can be located anywhere so long as the electrical grid system is robust enough.

 

[MediumRare]

I don’t know where this idea of bashing California for some supposed blinkered policy preventing battery reuse or recycling comes from. On the contrary, California is leading where the Federal Gov. should have been. California has, through CARB and other legislation and subsidies, been in the forefront of promoting new vehicle and energy technology for a decade or more. They still are. Europe is also creating these necessary legal structures. https://www.bdlaw.com/publications/...am-and-broadly-expand-states-e-waste-program/

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I don’t know where this idea of bashing California for some supposed blinkered policy preventing battery reuse or recycling comes from. On the contrary, California is leading where the Federal Gov. should have been. California has, through CARB and other legislation and subsidies, been in the forefront of promoting new vehicle and energy technology for a decade or more. They still are. Europe is also creating these necessary legal structures. https://www.bdlaw.com/publications/...am-and-broadly-expand-states-e-waste-program/

Their utilities are worse than Third World an absolute disgrace. Water, electrical supply, broadband provision etc. Got family there and have visited many times. As an example was in Safeway Monterey mid afternoon and there was power cut. The guy behind us had heard us talking tapped me on the shoulder and said “Is this what you call gratitude? We gave the Russians’ freedom and they gave us power cuts.” I didn’t bash California over battery use just pointed out a previous post which you or someone else posted. The terms and condition laid down in the report on their reuse were draconian. On the point made about the recycling of lead acid batteries, there is a fee charged for the service. The California report points out .disposing of EV batteries will have to be subsidised by the government.

 

[Willem]

‘No miracles needed’: Prof Mark Jacobson on how wind, sun and water can power the world

The influential academic says renewables alone can halt climate crisis, with technologies such as carbon capture expensive wastes of time

www.theguardian.com

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

‘No miracles needed’: Prof Mark Jacobson on how wind, sun and water can power the world

The influential academic says renewables alone can halt climate crisis, with technologies such as carbon capture expensive wastes of time

www.theguardian.com

Interesting! Although his limited palette of energy sources may be a a problem. Other people commenting on the article are split on this and on balance think I would agree with them. Not rubbishing what he said a great contribution to the debate.

 

[Willem]

Their utilities are worse than Third World an absolute disgrace.

This is true for much of the USA, although you do exaggerate a bit.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

This is true for much of the USA, although you do exaggerate a bit.

Can only go on what I’ve experienced, read and seen.
Used to watch a BBC World News program on the US, the woman presenting it from the US married was packing it in and moving with her new husband to Switzerland. A good journalist informative and often amusing, she was asked about living and working in the US. She lived in Virginia and said broadband reception at her home was so bad she sat in her car in the Library car park along with many others to communicate with the BBC and use the WEB. It isn’t just the US where public utilities are concerned, privatisation over here hasn’t worked either. It you take the installation of electricity smart meters the government paid the utility companies a few billion £s to roll out their installation. When BT Open Reach announced the rollout of fibre optics they had an auction to see who would pay to be first in the queue. Our local county council won and paid BT between £40-60 million, it was several years ago and we still don’t have it. It’s a total corruption of capitalism, if a car manufacturer asked a government to give them money to develop a new model people would be up in arms. Private utility companies let the infrastructure decay until the government has no choice but to pay them a ransom.

 

[MediumRare]

Reliability of the grid is an interesting question. The average loss of residential power in the US is 120 minutes per year. That’s 99.977% uptime. Forest fires, hurricanes, and tornadoes are the largest causes of extended outages. Older local transformers have been neglected due to maintenance cost-cutting, so that is an outcome of weakened regulation in our era of heightened drive for profitability, even of utilities.

Does anyone know if grid storage, or perhaps more importantly, residential two-way interconnection (home solar feeding the grid), should help reliability?

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Reliability of the grid is an interesting question. The average loss of residential power in the US is 120 minutes per year. That’s 99.977% uptime. Forest fires, hurricanes, and tornadoes are the largest causes of extended outages. Older local transformers have been neglected due to maintenance cost-cutting, so that is an outcome of weakened regulation in our era of heightened drive for profitability, even of utilities.

Does anyone know if grid storage, or perhaps more importantly, residential two-way interconnection (home solar feeding the grid), should help reliability?

Residential back feeding into the grid during a power outage is dangerous and impractical. Back feeding would reenergise the grid and isolation procedures would be compromised. Residential interconnection to the mains supply would take some load off the grid and generation under normal operation.

 

[MediumRare]

Residential back feeding into the grid during a power outage is dangerous and impractical. Back feeding would reenergise the grid and isolation procedures would be compromised. Residential interconnection to the mains supply would take some load off the grid and generation under normal operation.

I was thinking about the upgrade to the local grid needed to allow the interconnection. New control systems and maybe new transformers, thus improved local reliability.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Residential back feeding into the grid during a power outage is dangerous and impractical. Back feeding would reenergise the grid and isolation procedures would be compromised. Residential interconnection to the mains supply would take some load off the grid and generation under normal operation.

I don't know regs in all USA states, but I don't know of any that let you connect in a way that could even happen. Yes, you can put surplus back into the grid during normal operations. You have to have the correct connections that aren't going to let you connect to the grid if the grid is down. That simply won't be a possibility unless you have an illegal connection you didn't do properly.

 

[Willem]

I am not really sure what the issue is. Here in the Netherlands we all feed the surplus from our PV panels back into the grid and we even get paid rather well for that.
Blackouts are extremely rare (I have the statistics somewhere): I cannot remember one, other than the properly announced and planned disconnection last Autumn when the grid in our area was upgraded to be ready for a lot of EVs and heatpumps. The engineers told me we are now good for the next few decades.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I am not really sure what the issue is. Here in the Netherlands we all feed the surplus from our PV panels back into the grid and we even get paid rather well for that.
Blackouts are extremely rare (I have the statistics somewhere): I cannot remember one, other than the properly announced and planned disconnection last Autumn when the grid in our area was upgraded to be ready for a lot of EVs and heatpumps. The engineers told me we are now good for the next few decades.

Same practice in the UK payment is made when you feed the surplus power back into the grid. Planning permission is not needed for their installation up to 4kW in domestic premises, with the caveat planning permission is still needed for listed buildings. In the UK the single phase domestic mains supply is usually rated at 100A/60A @ 230V. No need to strengthen the distribution system for domestic mains surplus supply.

 

[MediumRare]

Same practice in the UK payment is made when you feed the surplus power back into the grid. Planning permission is not needed for their installation up to 4kW in domestic premises, with the caveat planning permission is still needed for listed buildings. In the UK the single phase domestic mains supply is usually rated at 100A/60A @ 230V. No need to strengthen the distribution system for domestic mains surplus supply.

In Chicago, planning permission is required, but it's expedited (two week process) as long as you meet the very clear safety rules. The utility is required to provide an interconnect agreement up to your previous annual consumption, +10%. For new construction of a typical family home (so, no history) the system max limit is 7.25 kW. Most new homes in Chicago get a 200 A line. Reimbursement is like running the meter backwards: 100% credit at full retail price, including all taxes. Credits carry over month-to-month, so summer surplus can cover winter consumption within a defined 12-month period.

 

[ctrl]

Does anyone know if grid storage, or perhaps more importantly, residential two-way interconnection (home solar feeding the grid), should help reliability?

In the future, the aim is to stabilize the power grids through local feed-in, using smart grids. In Germany, there have only been initial attempts at this so far. The installation of smart electricity meters is therefore to be driven forward, since this is a prerequisite of smart grids.

The smart grid can do much more than the conventional power grid.
With a correspondingly large number of decentralized energy sources, many small generators (for example PV systems, fuel cells, wind turbines and hydroelectric plants) can be combined to form virtual power plants.
This makes fluctuations in the power grid less likely and increases grid stability. In addition, any fluctuation in the grid can be better balanced out via load shifting and the use of electricity storage. Without an intelligent power grid, such precise coordination is not possible.

Source (google translate)

Of course, this also leads to local communities and cities that are energy self-sufficient (google translate).

The extent to which these attempts will be thwarted by the power grid operators, which are indirectly owned by the large power plant operators, will become clear in the near future.

Since the feed-in of renewable energy can be regulated by the power grid operators as desired, there have not been any massive problems (power interruption) in Germany so far, despite around 50% renewable energy - but this cannot be continued indefinitely without the conversion of the power grid.

So far, the increasing feed-in of local renewable energy has not destabilized the power grid (x-axis year, y-axis average annual power interruption in minutes):
SAIDIEnWG (System Average Interruption Duration Index)

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

In the future, the aim is to stabilize the power grids through local feed-in, using smart grids. In Germany, there have only been initial attempts at this so far. The installation of smart electricity meters is therefore to be driven forward, since this is a prerequisite of smart grids.


Source (google translate)

Of course, this also leads to local communities and cities that are energy self-sufficient (google translate).

The extent to which these attempts will be thwarted by the power grid operators, which are indirectly owned by the large power plant operators, will become clear in the near future.

Since the feed-in of renewable energy can be regulated by the power grid operators as desired, there have not been any massive problems (power interruption) in Germany so far, despite around 50% renewable energy - but this cannot be continued indefinitely without the conversion of the power grid.

So far, the increasing feed-in of local renewable energy has not destabilized the power grid (x-axis year, y-axis average annual power interruption in minutes):
SAIDIEnWG (System Average Interruption Duration Index)
View attachment 259701

View attachment 259700

A massive rollout of small sized solar panel installations wouldn’t need the National grid to be upgraded. Of it was a massive solar panel installation it may mean upgrading the grid. Over here planning is a real problem as an example there’s a massive row going on over connecting an offshore wind farm to the national grid. The opposition is from wealthy individuals who have they time and money to delay or get planning consent refused.
A few years ago Norfolk County Council signed an agreement for a waste incinerator/ generation plant outside Kings Lynn. It rattled on for years as many local residents objected on air quality pollution grounds. When listening to them it would have been funny if it wasn’t so stupid. Among their solutions was truck it to Great Yarmouth and ship it to the Netherlands for incineration. The Council cancelled the contract and paid £34 million in compensation. Kings Lynn’s rubbish is trucked down to Great Blakenham in Suffolk for incineration, a round trip of over 100 miles.

 

[MediumRare]

"The scientists calculated that when combined, vehicle-to-grid and end-of-vehicle-life capacity could reach 32 to 62 terawatt-hours by 2050. In contrast, they estimated grid demands for short-term storage would only be 3.4 to 19.2 TWh by 2050. In other words, in this respect at least, supply is projected to outstrip demand."

EVs Are Essential Grid-Scale Storage

Electric-vehicle batteries may help store renewable energy to help make it a practical reality for power grids, potentially meeting grid demands for energy storage by as early as 2030, a new study finds.

spectrum.ieee.org

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

"The scientists calculated that when combined, vehicle-to-grid and end-of-vehicle-life capacity could reach 32 to 62 terawatt-hours by 2050. In contrast, they estimated grid demands for short-term storage would only be 3.4 to 19.2 TWh by 2050. In other words, in this respect at least, supply is projected to outstrip demand."

EVs Are Essential Grid-Scale Storage

Electric-vehicle batteries may help store renewable energy to help make it a practical reality for power grids, potentially meeting grid demands for energy storage by as early as 2030, a new study finds.

spectrum.ieee.org

Been watching 5th Gear on Quest and the current series is on EVs seems to be well balanced and is certainly interesting. If you can get it outside the UK well worth watching. One slot was on buying used high mileage EVs and the effect of age and use on battery longevity. All of the three cars tested all had over 80% of battery capacity left, when it came to replacement it was quite surprising. To replace the battery in a Nissan Leaf would cost £14k while the battery replacement cost for a Tesla 3 was £10k. The Tesla battery also had deteriorated less than the other two vehicle batteries

 

[Keened]

There are really only two options that I see for near universal renewable energy storage and usage: Iron Flow Batteries and closed cycle hydrocarbon generators.

Iron Flow Batteries let you keep the energy more or less in the same format and can be installed anywhere there is sufficient real estate for the batteries and sub-stations. These work best for balancing diurnal power cycles where the demand is even and known.

Closed cycle hydrocarbon generators: use excess power to pull carbon from the atmosphere and create shelf-stable hydrocarbon energy storage. Mostly useful for areas with incomplete power grids. You can part out and move the hydrocarbon to areas that need power, you can sell excess to processing facilities for plastics manufacturing etc, and you can build a reserve of power significantly larger than the capability to generate it.

I don't think EVs for power storage is going to happen until we create micro-grids, and we can't create micro-grids until we create moden smart grids, and we can't create modern smart grid until we update our current grids from the insecure SCADA infrastructure to...something. I'm honestly not sure what, but not whatever the hell we currently have.