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Grid Storage Systems for Renewable Energy - Technology and Projects (No Politics)

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MediumRare

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Is there a reason not to install battery stations of one sort or other at closing, or recently closed, fossil powered generating stations? They're usually relatively secluded brown field industrial sites with good connections to the power grid.
Yes, the very largest site is at a retired power plant, but generally there are far better locations than dirty old power plants. Other than hydro, it takes up surprising little land area and is effectively silent. The average nuclear power plant in the US produces 1 MW on 832 acres. The same amount of grid storage can be done in 400,000 sq ft (under 10 acres), plus parking etc., so let's be generous and say 20 acres.
https://www.saurenergy.com/solar-en...gest-battery-energy-storage-systems-worldwide
 
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the cost of building batteries large enough to sustain a grid is still very high
Do you have data to support this?

I posted a recent comprehensive analysis that shows grid storage is far cheaper than any fossil fuel option. Around $150/kWhr to build (with virtually no operating cost) versus a gas turbine power plant at $700-$1200/kWhr plus fuel and other operating costs.

 
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I'm confident they have things controlled.
The technology is there to do it (NASA, for example) but the cost is very high (adds at least 30% of the energy required to produce the hydrogen since it must be chilled to -253 deg C). Plus the production cost of hydrogen is still 3-4x the value of the fossil fuel it replaces. Japan is having a terrible time with their hydrogen program and there are no viable technical solutions on the horizon.
 
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Hayabusa

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What about a world power grid ( super conducting, along with maybe a hyper loop tunnel?) It would at least solve the day/night problem for solar?
 

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The technology is there to do it (NASA, for example) but the cost is very high (adds at least 30% of the energy required to produce the hydrogen). Plus the production cost of hydrogen is still 3-4x the value of the electricity required. Japan is having a terrible time with their hydrogen program and there are no viable technical solutions on the horizon.
Rail, shipping, heavy machinery all rely on hydrogen to make regulations.
 
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What about a world power grid ( super conducting, along with maybe a hyper loop tunnel?) It would at least solve the day/night problem for solar?
Build it, you'll be the next Elon Musk! :)
 

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I think I do. There is not much concrete in a solar farm or wind farm. The Hoover dam is a bad example as using exiting not a new dam to pump up steam when there is excess electricity and generate when there is a shortage is what is being proposed. Dams are built primarily for water storage
I agree hydrogen must be generated near the power plant and that tech is years away but some big players are taking the plunge.
 

Doodski

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I agree hydrogen must be generated near the power plant and that tech is years away but some big players are taking the plunge.
The entire plan includes hydrogen. Some regions on Earth are so full of energy it makes sense to recycle and use hydrogen too. Some regions have very far distances between centers and hydrogen makes sense there.
 
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I agree hydrogen must be generated near the power plant and that tech is years away but some big players are taking the plunge.
This makes sense: "For now, Long Ridge is using hydrogen produced as a by-product from a nearby industrial facility."

They probably don't need to compress it to the liquid stage, either.
 

Blumlein 88

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Hey, maybe they'll get this ammonia thing figured out as a better hydrogen transport method. More efficient way to get hydrogen than direct PV to hydrogen and easier to ship about once you have done so.

 

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I designed & built a 10kW off grid system, and always realized that the storage is the weak link. The idea of gravity storage is done by TVA at Raccoon Mountain, but it’s not a practical approach. I found an interesting analysis of water/gravity storage somewhere, and as I couldn’t see any holes in his assessment I agree with the impractical nature. Let me see if I can find it.
 

MTBDoc

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I designed & built a 10kW off grid system, and always realized that the storage is the weak link. The idea of gravity storage is done by TVA at Raccoon Mountain, but it’s not a practical approach. I found an interesting analysis of water/gravity storage somewhere, and as I couldn’t see any holes in his assessment I agree with the impractical nature. Let me see if I can find it.
Okay, I found it! He even has a nice piece on Raccoon Mountain. That’s a tour I want to take sometime.

One further thought: there is a lot of energy wasted with flaring of gas wells. Someone with good data could perhaps clarify this.

Ultimately what we really need is local production, not huge storage systems. The transmission loss, infrastructure impact, and potential health implications from RF from transmission lines ought to avoided if a practical local storage can developed. Or simply put small nuclear reactors as found on ships & subs in your house or neighborhood
 
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ctrl

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Or simply put small nuclear reactors as found on ships & subs in your house or neighborhood
Nice idea, but could cause problems with liability insurance. You will not find anyone to insure the reactor (as is the case with the current reactors) or the plant will become completely uneconomical to operate ;)

Preliminary and incomplete costs (not including consequential damages, such as health care costs, for example) of reactor accidents:
Tschernobyl 200 Billion Dollar
Fukushima 260 Billion Dollar
Source
 

Blumlein 88

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Nice idea, but could cause problems with liability insurance. You will not find anyone to insure the reactor (as is the case with the current reactors) or the plant will become completely uneconomical to operate ;)

Preliminary and incomplete costs (not including consequential damages, such as health care costs, for example) of reactor accidents:
Tschernobyl 200 Billion Dollar
Fukushima 260 Billion Dollar
Source
There are reactor designs which are pretty close to foolproof under basic operation. As in they cannot runaway and meltdown. Chernobyl was a terrible design in many ways. Fukushima was more about where it was sighted.
 

Timcognito

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Fukushima was more about where it was sighted.
And where they sited the backup generators, on the ground at sea level. Hindsite is 20/20.
 

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Surprised no one mentioned Nikola Tesla and his genius idea to utilize power of lighting to generate electricity and transmit it all over the world. Lightning occurs on average 44±5 times every second over the entire Earth, making a total of about 1.4 billion flashes per year.

Tesla’s vision was to use the towers to transmit signals and free, unlimited wireless electricity all over the world:

“I wanted to illuminate the whole earth. There is enough electricity to become a second sun. Light would appear around the equator, as a ring around Saturn.

Mankind is not ready for the great and good. In Colorado Springs I soaked the earth by electricity. Also, we can water the other energies, such as positive mental energy. They are in the music of Bach or Mozart, or in the verses of great poets. In the Earth’s interior, there are energy of Joy, Peace, and Love. Their expressions are a flower that grows from the Earth, the food we get out of her and everything that makes man’s homeland. I’ve spent years looking for the way that this energy could influence people. The beauty and the scent of roses can be used as a medicine and the sun rays as a food.

Life has an infinite number of forms, and the duty of scientists is to find them in every form of matter. Three things are essential in this. All that I do is a search for them. I know I will not find them, but I will not give up on them.”

“Everything is the Light”
 

Suffolkhifinut

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Surprised no one mentioned Nikola Tesla and his genius idea to utilize power of lighting to generate electricity and transmit it all over the world. Lightning occurs on average 44±5 times every second over the entire Earth, making a total of about 1.4 billion flashes per year.

Tesla’s vision was to use the towers to transmit signals and free, unlimited wireless electricity all over the world:

“I wanted to illuminate the whole earth. There is enough electricity to become a second sun. Light would appear around the equator, as a ring around Saturn.

Mankind is not ready for the great and good. In Colorado Springs I soaked the earth by electricity. Also, we can water the other energies, such as positive mental energy. They are in the music of Bach or Mozart, or in the verses of great poets. In the Earth’s interior, there are energy of Joy, Peace, and Love. Their expressions are a flower that grows from the Earth, the food we get out of her and everything that makes man’s homeland. I’ve spent years looking for the way that this energy could influence people. The beauty and the scent of roses can be used as a medicine and the sun rays as a food.

Life has an infinite number of forms, and the duty of scientists is to find them in every form of matter. Three things are essential in this. All that I do is a search for them. I know I will not find them, but I will not give up on them.”

“Everything is the Light”
Wasn’t Tesla who said that it was Al Gore, or so he claims.
 

Keened

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The only question is how much capacity is needed to get to 80%, 90%, 100% of the base load.
To me that's the real killer of current battery storage. The ability to maintain base load without shedding, especially as we move into an era of killer weather (heat domes, polar vortex..ii?, etc) is a real red line. Also the danger of overtaxing and doing physical damage that leads to significant widespread downtime.
Do you have data to support this?

I posted a recent comprehensive analysis that shows grid storage is far cheaper than any fossil fuel option. Around $150/kWhr to build (with virtually no operating cost) versus a gas turbine power plant at $700-$1200/kWhr plus fuel and other operating costs.

I'm not seeing where you're pulling those numbers from, could you show which link in particular? I've clicked a few and haven't come across it.

This study shows petroleum and battery costs much closer in average. Because again, it's not about generating power during the day, it's about storing and generating power during the night/evening when demand is still very high and solar generation is very low.

Also, most of the numbers I'm seeing for battery storage are for 4-hour batteries, which if you are doing an all or almost-all renewable grid isn't the target. You need the grid to be a bit more robust than that, so you have to generally triple or worst case sextuple that cost; because you can't 'spin up' battery storage for on-demand spikes due to partial interconnection failure or emergency demand. Same with black (well, at this point more like white) swan scenarios like forest fires, etc disrupting generation during the day.

I am a massive fan of batteries, don't get me wrong, but for green grid scale baseload replacement: Lithium doesn't make much sense. Hydro doesn't make much sense. Gravity storage doesn't make much sense. That Ammonia cycle battery is very interesting though (although every concept that involves storing toxic gaseous materials in naturally created underground reservoirs is a bit unsettling for un-managable catastrophic consequences).
 
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To me that's the real killer of current battery storage. The ability to maintain base load without shedding, especially as we move into an era of killer weather (heat domes, polar vortex..ii?, etc) is a real red line. Also the danger of overtaxing and doing physical damage that leads to significant widespread downtime.

I'm not seeing where you're pulling those numbers from, could you show which link in particular? I've clicked a few and haven't come across it.

This study shows petroleum and battery costs much closer in average. Because again, it's not about generating power during the day, it's about storing and generating power during the night/evening when demand is still very high and solar generation is very low.

Also, most of the numbers I'm seeing for battery storage are for 4-hour batteries, which if you are doing an all or almost-all renewable grid isn't the target. You need the grid to be a bit more robust than that, so you have to generally triple or worst case sextuple that cost; because you can't 'spin up' battery storage for on-demand spikes due to partial interconnection failure or emergency demand. Same with black (well, at this point more like white) swan scenarios like forest fires, etc disrupting generation during the day.

I am a massive fan of batteries, don't get me wrong, but for green grid scale baseload replacement: Lithium doesn't make much sense. Hydro doesn't make much sense. Gravity storage doesn't make much sense. That Ammonia cycle battery is very interesting though (although every concept that involves storing toxic gaseous materials in naturally created underground reservoirs is a bit unsettling for un-managable catastrophic consequences).
1. Source of numbers for gas-turbine generation: This is handy, but many others online https://www.statista.com/statistics...enerator-construction-cost-in-the-us-by-type/

2. Day/Night: At grid scale you need to include wind generation, which is strongest at night. Also, 4 hours is based on current smaller installations. An earlier post showed the massive storage batteries being installed. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-and-projects-no-politics.40753/post-1446414

3. Cost comparison - link you have shows battery cost 32% lower than gas-fired. It's even lower now. Liquid petroleum is a trivial source of electricity production in the US. Also, there are virtually no operating costs for battery storage v. fuel consumption, so that graph does not show the levelized cost advantage, which is even greater.

4. "X storage doesn't make much sense": Not sure how to interpret that when batteries (LI and lead-acid) and pumped hydro are now in wide usage. Check out the video from Australia https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...y-and-projects-no-politics.40753/post-1446418

5. Agreed, ammonia cycle does not make sense for storage; batteries are far more efficient and cost-effective. Ammonia will only make sense in place of fossil fuels for very long-range vehicles (think ships) and eventually when full green ammonia->H2 fuel cells are commercialized (Check out the company Amogy) about 3 years from now.
 
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