Grid Storage Systems for Renewable Energy - Technology and Projects (No Politics)

[Marc v E]

Seems like they're doing allright in Australia since the battery installs.

They apparently had 11 days of more than 100% required energy generated by solar and wind in New South Wales. The result was a grid energy price of -3 dollar per Mwh (minus 3 dollar). They had to shut down some solar from the grid, but other than that nothing happened.

 

[Willem]

Another contribution could come from dynamic pricing: make energy expensive when it is in short supply, and cheap when it is abundant. To do this conveniently for consumers, we need a smart grid and smart appliances that respond to the energy price. Charging an EV when energy is cheap is one way, but domestic appliances can also be made smarter. There are still some protocol issues to be agreed, but it will not be long before the grid will send dynamic pricing information to your home, and the same applies to appliances, such as (dIsh)washing machines or refrigerators. We need a new fridge, and the first ones are about to reach the Dutch market. So I will wait with the new fridge until there are enough of them to choose from.

 

[MediumRare]

Another contribution could come from dynamic pricing: make energy expensive when it is in short supply, and cheap when it is abundant. To do this conveniently for consumers, we need a smart grid and smart appliances that respond to the energy price. Charging an EV when energy is cheap is one way, but domestic appliances can also be made smarter. There are still some protocol issues to be agreed, but it will not be long before the grid will send dynamic pricing information to your home, and the same applies to appliances, such as (dIsh)washing machines or refrigerators. We need a new fridge, and the first ones are about to reach the Dutch market. So I will wait with the new fridge until there are enough of them to choose from.

Rather than replace all your appliances or inconvenience yourself, a home battery system could handle the dynamic pricing. Of course, the whole point of grid storage is to buffer production and consumption, reducing or eliminating the price delta. These issues exist with today’s fossil-fuel/nuclear generation grid as well. Depending on your climate (hot & sunny summer days, for example) renewables can improve or complicate the picture, but either way more storage improves efficiencies dramatically.

 

[Willem]

Sure, storage will be helpful, but my guess is we shall need to combine all tactics. That at least is what power companies and the government here are preparing for. So we need dynamic pricing, a smart grid to make the best use of low prices, smart appliances, smart EV charging stations, beefed up long distance power lines to connect regions with different weather and hence different energy prices, local storage for those who have space for that, nuclear power to have a stable floor in the system, and whatever we may think of in the future. The economist in me expects a lot from the signals given off by dynamic pricing.

 

[monkeyboy]

There already is dynamic pricing...energy is cheaper at night than during the day...and it cost more during peak demand...EVs are likely the future, more for air quality and reliability than climate, just not right now, spend money on battery tech once that becomes reasonable, then you can have a plan to roll out EVs...you can't just do it overnight

 

[Marc v E]

There already is dynamic pricing...energy is cheaper at night than during the day...and it cost more during peak demand...EVs are likely the future, more for air quality and reliability than climate, just not right now, spend money on battery tech once that becomes reasonable, then you can have a plan to roll out EVs...you can't just do it overnight

That is correct. I have such a contract because it saves me more about 30-50% compared to current "variable" contracts.

 

[Willem]

Current cheap rates for night time electricity consumprion have actually been overtaken by the contribution of solar panels and should/will be abandoned in the near future or even be reveresed.

 

[Marc v E]

Current cheap rates for night time electricity consumprion have actually been overtaken by the contribution of solar panels and should/will be abandoned in the near future or even be reveresed.

I'm quite curious then what summer prices will be. Currently, in wintertime, prices at night are the lowest.

 

[MediumRare]

Current cheap rates for night time electricity consumprion have actually been overtaken by the contribution of solar panels and should/will be abandoned in the near future or even be reveresed.

Yes, solar peaks at noon, but wind peaks at night. Plus, as grid storage grows there won’t be much need for TOU pricing.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Another contribution could come from dynamic pricing: make energy expensive when it is in short supply, and cheap when it is abundant. To do this conveniently for consumers, we need a smart grid and smart appliances that respond to the energy price. Charging an EV when energy is cheap is one way, but domestic appliances can also be made smarter. There are still some protocol issues to be agreed, but it will not be long before the grid will send dynamic pricing information to your home, and the same applies to appliances, such as (dIsh)washing machines or refrigerators. We need a new fridge, and the first ones are about to reach the Dutch market. So I will wait with the new fridge until there are enough of them to choose from.

Our electricity utility provides a substantial off-peak period price reduction, 1/2 price 19:00 to 07:00. Air conditioning is a virtual necessity in the summer and, of course, peak temperature are during the day when electricity costs are highest.

Our solution to mitigating our AC cost is to set the thermostat setting down in couple of stages after 19:00 (7 PM) down to a low of 21 C at 02:00. At 07:00 we set the thermostat to 24 C -- frequently the AC doesn't come back on 'till 19:00 but even on the hottest days the AC comes on only after 15:30.

 

[MediumRare]

Our electricity utility provides a substantial off-peak period price reduction, 1/2 price 19:00 to 07:00. Air conditioning is a virtual necessity in the summer and, of course, peak temperature are during the day when electricity costs are highest.

Our solution to mitigating our AC cost is to set the thermostat setting down in couple of stages after 19:00 (7 PM) down to a low of 21 C at 02:00. At 07:00 we set the thermostat to 24 C -- frequently the AC doesn't come back on 'till 19:00 but even on the hottest days the AC comes on only after 15:30.

Wow, 1/2 price should pay for a buffering battery!

 

[Mr. Widget]

Wow, 1/2 price should pay for a buffering battery!

Five years ago I bought a house with existing solar panels. A couple of years ago I added storage primarily to avoid blackouts. During a three day blackout I discovered that even if your panels are producing electricity, to avoid feeding power to the grid when it is off line, you are not allowed to receive energy from your panels during a power outage if you do not have local storage.

Adding the batteries has been great, no more outages, however the $20K it cost including installation will never be recovered as part of any cost savings.

 

[Willem]

Interesting but something I never thought about: blackouts apparently can happen, but so rarely that I think I never experienced one.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Our electricity utility provides a substantial off-peak period price reduction, 1/2 price 19:00 to 07:00. Air conditioning is a virtual necessity in the summer and, of course, peak temperature are during the day when electricity costs are highest.

Our solution to mitigating our AC cost is to set the thermostat setting down in couple of stages after 19:00 (7 PM) down to a low of 21 C at 02:00. At 07:00 we set the thermostat to 24 C -- frequently the AC doesn't come back on 'till 19:00 but even on the hottest days the AC comes on only after 15:30.

Off peak reduced tariffs have been common in the UK for decades, used to get my supply this way until I found out they increase the standard tariff rate in the UK. You save money at night and pay more during the day. Having monitored both systems for us the cost is about the same. Where we gain is in using electricity when it suits us, with Bioethanol supplementary heating to reduce our electricity consumption.

 

[MediumRare]

Wow, this paper says so many EV batteries will become available for grid storage it will cover the entire grid’s requirements. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35393-0

 

[Marc v E]

Wow, this paper says so many EV batteries will become available for grid storage it will cover the entire grid’s requirements. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35393-0

Yeah, seems about right imo.
The eof ev batteries will solve problems in stead of creating more.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Wow, this paper says so many EV batteries will become available for grid storage it will cover the entire grid’s requirements. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35393-0

Several points need clarifying from the nature.com article.
1. They make their storage capacity calculations based on city temperature. Yet large scale battery installations are not suitable for city installations where average ambient temperatures are at their highest.
2. They would have to be installed in rural largely unpopulated areas, due to their size and combustible nature.
3. Lead acid recycling rates are at 100% due to government Health & Safety legislation and they are relatively easy to recycle. Was it you that posted a reference from the Government of California which imposed quite draconian requirement for the recycling of EV batteries?
4. The report states when the battery capacity falls below 70% to 80% they are no longer suitable for use in an electric vehicle. Does further degradation of capacity happen on a linear timescale or will they degrade at a faster rate? Not seen any research on this yet it’s vital to know if once discarded they are to be used for grid power storage.
Until these points and I dare say many others are cleared up, any talk of using degraded capacity old batteries for grid storage is a PR exercise.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Several points need clarifying from the nature.com article.
1. They make their storage capacity calculations based on city temperature. Yet large scale battery installations are not suitable for city installations where average ambient temperatures are at their highest.
2. They would have to be installed in rural largely unpopulated areas, due to their size and combustible nature.
3. Lead acid recycling rates are at 100% due to government Health & Safety legislation and they are relatively easy to recycle. Was it you that posted a reference from the Government of California which imposed quite draconian requirement for the recycling of EV batteries?
4. The report states when the battery capacity falls below 70% to 80% they are no longer suitable for use in an electric vehicle. Does further degradation of capacity happen on a linear timescale or will they degrade at a faster rate? Not seen any research on this yet it’s vital to know if once discarded they are to be used for grid power storage.
Until these points and I dare say many others are cleared up, any talk of using degraded capacity old batteries for grid storage is a PR exercise.

Of course genuine data is scarce yet. It does appear the degradation is more or less linear.

Don't know what you mean about not being suitable for city installations. If it is no more than some cities are hot, well okay, duh! Most cities are not.

In Australia the truly large battery backups are near wind or solar cell generating sites and those usually are rural. So what most gasoline and diesel tanker farms are at least somewhat rural too.

I don't know how viable such things will be yet, but at every opportunity you have a stance that since all the battery electric stuff is not already 100% worked out and known 100% safe, and 100% reliable and cheap then it is useless. That is not how technology works.

 

[Willem]

And it is not as if fossil fuel does not have issues. The first of those is price, and the second is environmental.
We just have to enter the new age of sustainable energy. The good news is that it can be cheaper and cleaner. The challenge is supply variability, during the 24 hour cycle and over the year.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Of course genuine data is scarce yet. It does appear the degradation is more or less linear.

Don't know what you mean about not being suitable for city installations. If it is no more than some cities are hot, well okay, duh! Most cities are not.

In Australia the truly large battery backups are near wind or solar cell generating sites and those usually are rural. So what most gasoline and diesel tanker farms are at least somewhat rural too.

I don't know how viable such things will be yet, but at every opportunity you have a stance that since all the battery electric stuff is not already 100% worked out and known 100% safe, and 100% reliable and cheap then it is useless. That is not how technology works.

Don’t think you read my point very well on city temperatures they are always higher in a city than in the surrounding rural areas. As we have seen EV batteries are far less effective in colder temperatures. Due to their size and fire risk they will never been installed in densely populated urban locations. Try reading the article someone referenced in a previous post, written by a committee working for the Government of California. Technology only works in the long term when it’s proven to be cost effective, reliable and environmentally an improvement. Will the use of EVs improve air quality absolutely but at what long term environmental cost?