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Stereophiles editor Jim Austin publicly disagreeing with Kal Rubinson

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JSmith

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Mpingo discs
It is a very musical tree and wood... maybe he is onto something. :facepalm:

Apparently many mpingo discs are required for them to work;
B3. Spatial Control Sextet: This is the ultimate room acoustic control system consisting of a total of 44 Mpingo Disc with six maple wood stands. It literally brings the music hall into ones listening room as though the walls have disappeared. The realism is truly uncanny, it gives the illusion of bringing the listener back to the recording session, and you are there.


JSmith
 

Sal1950

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antcollinet

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That's mighty presumptive of you. Very engineer-like.
I could easily suggest that you, yourself, do not understand that the relationship between measurements and audibility (or inaudibility) cannot be presumed. There's a large, but incomplete body of research to establish that relationship.

But, I'll humor you. What specific measurements and at what thresholds do you believe PROVE that two DACs will sound identical in a properly controlled listening test? And what is your evidence to support it?
Well, here is the article generally referenced here for limits of audibility:

Combine that with the fact that no-one has so far been able to demonstrate - in a correctly controlled blind listening test - that they (or anyone else) can distinguish the difference between devices even performing to the lenient limits, This includes the manufacturers of over priced gear (the ones with the resources and the motivation to prove that their kit sounds better), so I think it is fairly safe.

Of course, like any science, if someone comes up with well grounded evidence that contradicts these limits, we'll all have to look again. I won't be holding my breath for that though.
 
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Talisman

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Yeah, I just couldn't deal with something that looks like that Danley monolith. I found even subwoofers to be aesthetically distasteful (and when I had them, did my best to hide them).

For my taste, I think my Thiel 2.7 speakers have a passes-the-test-of-time look. Introduced in 2013 they still look (to my eyes) contemporary, refined, beautifully finished etc. Photo from my room (which also combines my home theater):

View attachment 242689
Being rational also means understanding and accepting the irrational nature that is typical of the human being.
For this reason you are absolutely right, between two speakers that are hypothetically identical I would prefer a more beautiful one, even if it costs a little more, because I know that this extra acoustic perception will affect my mental perception of sound quality, and this will inevitably happen, and it does not matter that I rationally know that this is not the case, it will be the same.
Having said that I find that your speakers look great in the context of your living room, however, to be completely honest, they look like little coffins to me.
 

Timcognito

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The Magic of Mpingo
Those are fake US patent numbers on the Mpingo website. I just tried to look them up on uspto.gov
 

Timcognito

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Wow - are they then illegal to sell in USA?
Not sure if you are serious. But just in case, they can be sold but it is blatant false advertising as as opposed dubious claims.
 

antcollinet

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Not sure if you are serious. But just in case, they can be sold but it is blatant false advertising as as opposed dubious claims.
I was serious. I'd have thought the false advertising would be at least actionable. And that setting the patent office on them might be an option.
 

Timcognito

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And that setting the patent office on them might be an option.
Those guys are overwhelmed with just issuing patents. I think the US Patent Office and Department of Forestry are the two goverement offices that make money.
 

preload

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Well, here is the article generally referenced here for limits of audibility:
Thank you for the link.
Just to make my position clear, I do NOT believe that the DACs, in general, have readily audible differences. BUT the reason I think it's safe to say that is NOT based on measurements, per se, but rather based on quite a few blind listening experiments.

That being said, I'm a little concerned that you've used a post on an internet forum as your "reference" for why you believe you can rely solely on measurements to determine whether two DACS will sound identical But as before, I'll humor you.

1) In the post you linked, the forum poster/author attempted to establish that the dynamic range measurement required to establish transparency was -96dbfs. The poster pointed out that the Benchmark DAC1 USB does NOT meet the -96dbfs criterion. So solely based on the DR measurements of the Benchmark DAC1 USB, would you be saying that it is NOT transparent? If not how do you reconcile this?

2) In the post you linked, the forum poster/author attempted to establish that the frequency response deviations of +/- 0.5dB are not audible, and HIS reference for this was another internet poster named "NwAvGuy" who gave an online opinion. Is this level of evidence (internet poster quoting another internet poster) really compelling to you? (I mean it's better than tiktok, but c'mon).

...and I'm just getting warmed up here.

Combine that with the fact that no-one has so far been able to demonstrate - in a correctly controlled blind listening test - that they (or anyone else) can distinguish the difference between devices even performing to the lenient limits,

Well let's be clear on that. So far, there have been quite a few descriptions of blind listening tests where listeners were unable to distinguish between the tested DACs. And again, this is why it's probably safe to assume that similarly designed DACs with similar measurements are also audibly indistinguishable. HOWEVER, what these listening tests do NOT do is establish which individual measurements and at which specific thresholds will guarantee inaudibility. What these experiments DO do is create an experience base, by which we can say that "these groups of DACs were all audibly transparent in listening tests, and these were the measured characteristics of each of them" and make an assumption (it's an assumption because it has not been empirically proven), that other DACs that have similar measurements are also audibly transparent. But it's still an assumption. The measurements don't prove anything, they are simply a heuristic shortcut for us to assume that a DAC is transparent without having to perform the laborious blind listening tests. And that's how applied science works.

As an aside, let me politely remind folks that sometimes engineers get it wrong when it comes to interpreting how audio equipment will "sound" based on measurements - and this was the case where the prominent and respected audio engineers in the late 90's insisted that flat sound power FR was most desirable FR curve in loudspeakers. As a friendly reminder, the Harman group (i.e. Olive) proved them all incorrect in 2004, and they did this not with more measurements, and not with insisting that everyone needed to read the textbooks again, but with an elegant experiment that relied on human subjects reporting their subjective listener impressions. The Harman group effectively demonstrated that: a) sometimes engineers interpret measurements incorrectly because of false assumptions, and b) blinded, controlled listening tests by human beings are still the gold standard if you want to know about how sound quality is perceived.

In other words, there is a role to subjective listening impressions, and measurements do not trump everything else.
 
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MAB

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In other words, there is a role to subjective listening impressions, and measurements do not trump everything else.
Perhaps I would agree with all you wrote, but your logic is upside down in this circumstance... This thread is about lack of proper scientific testing in the presence of pure subjectivism in Stereophile's comments section. You're not going to convince me that subjectivism has taken a blow here. In fact, once again subjectivism has upended reasoned scientific approach, this time in defense of a truly fringe position (outboard passive bi-wiring, from someone who posts like the village-idiot, who believes that his way is the only way). If you have worked in audio sales, been to a trade show, gone to a Dungeons and Dragons convention... Oh wait, you probably know this type too...;) An ideological nightmare...:eek:

Hypothetical: let's say someone posts on ASR that they bought two speakers and they like one better even if it has a worse preference score, and they get flamed. In that case, everything you posted I would agree with. And to be clear, that does happen here (and elsewhere):facepalm:. And it would be an example of subjectivism getting a beatdown from science. But that isn't what happened in Stereophile, quite the opposite. Please understand how far into the weeds we have meandered.
 

DonR

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b) blinded, controlled listening tests by human beings are still the gold standard if you want to know about how sound quality is perceived.

In other words, there is a role to subjective listening impressions, and measurements do not trump everything else.
Those two are not the same thing.
 

fpitas

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It's obvious passive bi-wiring will only be superior to a single cable if the finest cables are used. Since people here refuse to even think about paying what's necessary for good speaker cables, we will never experience the benefits of bi-wiring.







/How did I do?
 

DavidEdwinAston

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Thank you for the link.
Just to make my position clear, I do NOT believe that the DACs, in general, have readily audible differences. BUT the reason I think it's safe to say that is NOT based on measurements, per se, but rather based on quite a few blind listening experiment.

That being said, I'm a little concerned that you've used a post on an internet forum as your "reference" for why you believe you can rely solely on measurements to determine whether two DACS will sound identical But as before, I'll humor you.

1) In the post you linked, the forum poster/author attempted to establish that the dynamic range measurement required to establish transparency was -96dbfs. The poster pointed out that the Benchmark DAC1 USB does NOT meet the -96dbfs criterion. So solely based on the DR measurements of the Benchmark DAC1 USB, would you be saying that it is NOT transparent? If not how do you reconcile this?

2) In the post you linked, the forum poster/author attempted to establish that the frequency response deviations of +/- 0.5dB are not audible, and HIS reference for this was another internet poster named "NwAvGuy" who gave an online opinion. Is this level of evidence (internet poster quoting another internet poster) really compelling to you? (I mean it's better than tiktok, but c'mon).

...and I'm just getting warmed up here.



Well let's be clear on that. So far, there have been quite a few descriptions of blind listening tests where listeners were unable to distinguish between the tested DACs. And again, this is why it's probably safe to assume that similarly designed DACs with similar measurements are also audibly indistinguishable. HOWEVER, what these listening tests do NOT do is establish which individual measurements and at which specific thresholds will guarantee inaudibility. What these experiments DO do is create an experience base, by which we can say that "these groups of DACs were all audibly transparent in listening tests, and these were the measured characteristics of each of them" and make an assumption (it's an assumption because it has not been empirically proven), that other DACs that have similar measurements are also audibly transparent. But it's still an assumption. The measurements don't prove anything, they are simply a heuristic shortcut for us to assume that a DAC is transparent without having to perform the laborious blind listening tests. And that's how applied science works.

As an aside, let me politely remind folks that sometimes engineers get it wrong when it comes to interpreting how audio equipment will "sound" based on measurements - and this was the case where the prominent and respected audio engineers in the late 90's insisted that flat sound power FR was most desirable FR curve in loudspeakers. As a friendly reminder, the Harman group (i.e. Olive) proved them all incorrect in 2004, and they did this not with more measurements, and not with insisting that everyone needed to read the textbooks again, but with an elegant experiment that relied on human subjects reporting their subjective listener impressions. The Harman group effectively demonstrated that: a) sometimes engineers interpret measurements incorrectly because of false assumptions, and b) blinded, controlled listening tests by human beings are still the gold standard if you want to know about how sound quality is perceived.

In other words, there is a role to subjective listening impressions, and measurements do not trump everything else.
I agree that there is a role for subjective listening impressions. I "like", my new Sierra LX's, for instance.
However, objectivity in fact does "trump" my "liking" the speakers.
As an aside, do we really have to think about trump just now
 

preload

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Perhaps I would agree with all you wrote, but your logic is upside down in this circumstance... This thread is about lack of proper scientific testing in the presence of pure subjectivism in Stereophile's comments section.
I hear you. I think that speaks to the type of audience that Stereophile is catering to. It's a magazine. It's for entertainment. And honestly, I could care less about the opinions expressed in Stereophile's comments section. But if it makes them happy to believe that bi-wiring with cryo-treated silver cables makes a big difference, great, it's their money, and they're helping the economy.

Hypothetical: let's say someone posts on ASR that they bought two speakers and they like one better even if it has a worse preference score, and they get flamed. In that case, everything you posted I would agree with. And to be clear, that does happen here (and elsewhere):facepalm:.
Great! Because that's ultimately where I'm coming from. It's the periodic tendency for someone here to say that Loudspeaker A can't possibly sound as good as Loudspeaker B, because they looked at the measurement graphs and the measurements don't lie. And if anyone happens to think Loudspeaker A does sound good, well then that person has defective hearing or is a moron, or both.
 
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It's obvious passive bi-wiring will only be superior to a single cable if the finest cables are used. Since people here refuse to even think about paying what's necessary for good speaker cables, we will never experience the benefits of bi-wiring.







/How did I do?
Badly, you will need to lift far more veils than that :)

Once you have installed the quantum power cables, regenerators, grounding boxes, cable lifters, mpingo discs and a doorstop on your DAC then come back and we'll talk.

Until you've deployed that lot, Diana Krall will be indistinguishable from Bono. Probably.

Once you have the basics in place then can get into the serious bi-wiring veil-lifting with the big boys.
 

MAB

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I hear you. I think that speaks to the type of audience that Stereophile is catering to. It's a magazine. It's for entertainment. And honestly, I could care less about the opinions expressed in Stereophile's comments section. But if it makes them happy to believe that bi-wiring with cryo-treated silver cables makes a big difference, great, it's their money, and they're helping the economy.


Great! Because that's ultimately where I'm coming from. It's the periodic tendency for someone here to say that Loudspeaker A can't possibly sound as good as Loudspeaker B, because they looked at the measurement graphs and the measurements don't lie. And if anyone happens to think Loudspeaker A does sound good, well then that person has defective hearing or is a moron, or both.
Yes, and thanks. I like to give a wide berth for listening to and enjoying the system you have. I'm also a fan of being able to make improvements and accept people are going to have different approaches.

In the outside chance I wake up in a world where 90% of review sites are objective-only and subjectivism is widely ridiculed, I might have to devote my time to try to figure out how to get back to musical enjoyment.
In the current reality, where 90% of hifi reviews are entirely subjective and rational objective thought on how to construct electronic reproduction equipment seems to be met with mysticism, rantings and derision, I find it hard to believe that Jim Austin elevated and enabled this zealot's bellowing. In the comments section of Kal's review of an Anthem amplifier.
 
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