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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?
- Thread starter Willhelm_Scream
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Blimey, I don't know if your issues are reading issues or comprehension issues.
Roland68
Major Contributor
No, no, no, that's not true.Oh, the standard audiophile "even my wife can hear it".
The wife ran into the living room from the kitchen 3 rooms away because the sound was so much better than usual.
Of course, the mixer, food processor, extractor hood and vacuum cleaner were all running in the kitchen...
This is kind of step 3 in the playbook for trolls around here:
1) the differences are obvious (extra points for "even my wife...")
[did you do a controlled experiment?]
2) A blind test isn't necessary
[yes it is, your biases are very hard to control]
3) if you can't tell your equipment/hearing is at fault (otherwise known as the Golden Ears Fallacy)
[requests to understand if any perceived difference might be attributable to something readily measurable]
4) not everything can be measured
[name something audible that can't be measured]
5) How would I show it to you?
[through a ...controlled listening test]
6)word salad, insult-throwing
Honestly, I've always found the Golden Ear Fallacy most offensive, just because it is so...unearned, and usually comes from someone close to or over my age (58) with compromised and untrained hearing who thinks listening to and making up adjectives about a lot of equipment produces expertise or ear training.
I've had my suspicions, too. It is formulaic, but it does work...for a while.
I can hear a difference if one DAC would invert polarity compared to another one. But I guess that does not count. And once I heard a difference of a Monarch DIP connected between a CD transport and an external DAC. The DAC refused to lock on the CD transport and the Monarchy fixed it. So it was no sound vs sound. But again, I guess that does not count as well.
Oh yeah, there are myriad reasons why DACs might indeed sound different, but the question is whether anything that measures as well or better than one of the dongles Amir has recommended can be told apart in a blind test. I assume no until given controlled-test evidence otherwise.I can hear a difference if one DAC would invert polarity compared to another one. But I guess that does not count. And once I heard a difference of a Monarch DIP connected between a CD transport and an external DAC. The DAC refused to lock on the CD transport and the Monarchy fixed it. So it was no sound vs sound. But again, I guess that does not count as well.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
More like a form of masochism. We've been through this a gazillion times
Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements
Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...
www.audiosciencereview.com
The Shoutometer
We've all seen the Sound Pressure Level decibel reference tables where you have "quiet room", "chainsaw", "jet engine" and so on. While that is handy for estimating increased loudness in decibles, it didn't help me when thinking about the measurement levels obtained around here when measuring...
www.audiosciencereview.com
I'd argue that most "horrors" aren't much of a nuisance even if they go above -40dB. There's a big difference between something being detectable if you concentrate and know what to listen for, and something being decremental to a listening experience.
There's always some nutcase claiming that he/she feels tormented by artifacts at -300dB, but the fact that anything at all can be detected at -120dB is mind-bogglingly impressive. The differences are ridiculously small at that level. Actual music with its masking effect makes the claims about night and day differences even more preposterous.
IMO, the only way an R2R DAC can sound different is by adding something to the output. That something can also be added in numerous other ways, making R2R DACs a non-essential part of the equation.
Gone, but not forgotten! Although he probably reincarnated as one of the present crop of trolls.
Good points .. it was (as mentioned) music I worked on for weeks during my 30 year sound engineering career so it was very specific things I picked up.More like a form of masochism. We've been through this a gazillion times
Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements
Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...The Shoutometer
We've all seen the Sound Pressure Level decibel reference tables where you have "quiet room", "chainsaw", "jet engine" and so on. While that is handy for estimating increased loudness in decibles, it didn't help me when thinking about the measurement levels obtained around here when measuring...
I'd argue that most "horrors" aren't much of a nuisance even if they go above -40dB. There's a big difference between something being detectable if you concentrate and know what to listen for, and something being decremental to a listening experience.
There's always some nutcase claiming that he/she feels tormented by artifacts at -300dB, but the fact that anything at all can be detected at -120dB is mind-bogglingly impressive. The differences are ridiculously small at that level. Actual music with its masking effect makes the claims about night and day differences even more preposterous.
IMO, the only way an R2R DAC can sound different is by adding something to the output. That something can also be added in numerous other ways, making R2R DACs a non-essential part of the equation.
My wife has only one ear that functions with limited response in the other due to an accident .. she literally cannot hear the dialog on TV if using the TV DAC it's that bass heavy and dull. She can with the rme.
There are too many unkind folk making unfounded assumptions on this board so I am stopping now but will research the possibilities of measuring and understanding these differences with thanks to those who handed me a start point.
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Your posts are full of unfounded assumptions about your hearing. They followed a standard and known flawed pattern of ideas. It is so repetitive and typical it is tedious to correct and you have been ignoring most of the feedback given blundering forth anyway. Eventually patience runs out. Sorry if it seems unkind.
I know this is futile to say, but... start with an actual ears-only experiment with basic controls to find out if the differences actually exist. Imaginary differences are not amenable to measurement.
One can design a dac or a preamplifier, or power amp with more or a less stiff power supply.
In a dac , a slight analog compression effect can be had in some cases if the analog output stage of the dac is driven by a low current, non-stiff regulated power supply. Having 10 Ohm resistors in series with the supply makes the noise go down in a dac, having 100 Ohm resistors can make the sound less dynamic and ”softer” sounding. This is not rocket science at all. Some manufacturers do this to make their gear sound more ” analog ” . The difference between a 5 ohm resistor and a 100 Ohm resistor before the power input of an OP amp dont change the measured frequency response at all. But it can make the sound less dynamic and less ”digital” and maybe with more ”flow” ( because of the dynamic compression effect ) that might appeal to some audiophiles.
In 2007 I did a lot of experiment to make my Marantz CD player sound different. This was originally a very soft sounding cd player that had won a lot of awards in the hifipress at that time. So I teared it appart and reckognised that the analog output from the dac was driven by a very ” soft” powersupply with a lot of resistors before the OP power inputs. And then the HDAM buffers - the same story. The sound was warm and soft but with a somewhat undistinct bass . I tried with other resistors with a lower value and also tried bypassing the HDAM bufferts and the ” digital sound” was back, a sound that I didnt like at that period because my reference recordplayer was of a very famous Scottish brand… and with a stiffer power supply, my Marantz cd player sounded as bad as my Denon cd player I had . Less ”flow” , more sibilant” , ”more digital” - but maybe more like the digital master ?
So to keep this short - one can make a dac sound slightly different and it wont show up on a frequency response curve , but other measurements you make may be different and show differences.
One other example than the Marantz I mentioned above, constructed with a non stiff regulation , is probably the REGA dac that sounds very different than most other dacs. Very much like a record player. I had It for a year before I bought my Naim streamer ten years ago. The original Linn Akurate DS player seems also to use a very non stiff power supply for the analog output, as you can read here:
Gerts Mod für den Linn Akurate DS (G-ADS) - aktives-hoeren.de
www.aktives-hoeren.de
Edit: One thing about ”soundstage” and such - it dont exists for real in two channel recordings and playback. Its only an illusion, as we all know. But a slight analog compression because of a high impedance powersupply in the dac, can make the illusion of the sound more likable, more ”flowing” and less distracting.
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I do not limit "measurements" to frequency response, nor does our host.
Presumably, as is your habit, you have zero evidence behind these dubious sonic claims?One can design a dac or a preamplifier, or power amp with more or a less stiff power supply.
In a dac , a slight analog compression effect can be had in some cases if the analog output stage of the dac is driven by a low current, non-stiff regulated power supply. Having 10 Ohm resistors in series with the supply makes the noise go down in a dac, having 100 Ohm resistors can make the sound less dynamic and ”softer” sounding. This is not rocket science at all. Some manufacturers do this to make their gear sound more ” analog ” . The difference between a 5 ohm resistor and a 100 Ohm resistor dont change the measured frequency response at all. But it can make the sound less dynamic and less ”digital” and maybe with more ”flow” ( because of the dynamic compression effect ) that might appeal to some audiophiles.
In 2007 I did a lot of experiment to make my Marantz CD player sound different. This was originally a very soft sounding cd player that had won a lot of awards in the hifipress at that time. So I teared it appart and reckognised that the analog output from the dac was driven by a very ” soft” powersupply with a lot of resistors before the OP power inputs. And then the HDAM buffers - the same story. The sound was warm and soft but with a somewhat undistinct bass . I tried with other resistors with a lower value and also tried bypassing the HDAM bufferts and the ” digital sound” was back, a sound that I didnt like at that period because my reference recordplayer was of a very famous Scottish brand… and with a stiffer power supply, my Marantz cd player sounded as bad as my Denon cd player I had . Less ”flow” , more sibilant” , ”more digital” - but maybe more like the digital master ?
So to keep this short - one can make a dac sound slightly different and it wont show up on a frequency response curve , but other measurements you make may be different and show differences.
One other example than the Marantz I mentioned above, constructed with a non stiff regulation , is probably the REGA dac that sounds very different than most other dacs. Very much like a record player. I had It for a year before I bought my Naim streamer ten years ago. The Linn Akurate DS player seems also use a very non stiff power supply for the analog output, as you can read here:
Edit: One thing about ”soundstage” and such - it dont exists for real in two channel recordings and playback. Its only an illusion, as we all know. But a slight analog compression because of a high impedance powersupply in the dac, can make the illusion of the sound more likable, more ”flowing” and less distracting.
Ok and I agree. I believe if two DACs sound slightly different, you can ofcourse measure the differences- but you have to measure the right thing.
So how would your resistors/power supply show up in measurements? And why do you think people perceive a difference?
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