ATC speakers / Monitors

[thewas]

I'd imagine they would do well to get a Klippel (if they don't have access to a decent anechoic chamber already) for R&D purposes.

The Klippel NFS just makes things faster and can be a help and addition for precision for the bass region if you don't have either an anechoic chamber or open big space, but for the most important tuning of mid and highs and their directivities a normal not too small sized room is enough, this is how upmost loudspeaker designers (companies and hobbyists) did and do and with current tools even crossover tuning can be done very quickly https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-spinoramas-with-rew-and-vituixcad.21860/
What is more difficult though and needs other tools is to design for example the optimal shape of baffles and waveguides if you don't want to revert to the tedious trial and error method of the past but even there nowadays good hobbyists have shown excellent examples with free modelling and simulation tools.

 

[mkt]

ATC wins the stand portion of the con

The ultimate test
Amir has to measure and compare both View attachment 240790View attachment 240791

ATC wins the stand portion of the competition

 

[Avp1]

They sound great
But the price... View attachment 240766

And this is likely without bass modules, wich add another $12000 or so.

 

[dfuller]

Thanks the info! But I just seek a general consensus about 1x12" vs 1x15" vs 2x12" or maybe 1x18" woofer (not sub) selection for a 3-way DIY project. The ATCs are good in that regard, because there are models with the mentioned layouts (except the 18" of course).

Yeah - I think without a pretty deep waveguide on the mid, I'd be stopping at 12" for the woofer.

The Klippel NFS just makes things faster and can be a help and addition for precision for the bass region if you don't have either an anechoic chamber or open big space, but for the most important tuning of mid and highs and their directivities a normal not too small sized room is enough, this is how upmost loudspeaker designers (companies and hobbyists) did and do and with current tools even crossover tuning can be done very quickly https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-spinoramas-with-rew-and-vituixcad.21860/
What is more difficult though and needs other tools is to design for example the optimal shape of baffles and waveguides if you don't want to revert to the tedious trial and error method of the past but even there nowadays good hobbyists have shown excellent examples with free modelling and simulation tools.

Right, like I said - if they don't have access to a good anechoic chamber already.

With regard to the baffle and/or waveguide design, last time I checked Neumann (well, K&H) went through dozens of iterations when they didn't have the modeling tools available, so yeah, I think I understand why a lot of companies are sort of... standoffish on the whole thing.

Focal has only verrrry recently started integrating them again (they tried about 15 years ago with the CMS line, that didn't go great, they reverted back to flat baffles on the Shapes).

 

[thewas]

Right, like I said - if they don't have access to a good anechoic chamber already.

As I wrote above an anechoic chamber while nice to have is not even necessarily needed.

With regard to the baffle and/or waveguide design, last time I checked Neumann (well, K&H) went through dozens of iterations when they didn't have the modeling tools available

Yes, that was I think in till the 90s, the last couple of generations are of course numerically modelled and simulated without needing to build hundreds of prototypes like in the past.

 

[Pearljam5000]

U

As I wrote above an anechoic chamber while nice to have is not even necessarily needed.


Yes, that was I think in till the 90s, the last couple of generations are of course numerically modelled and simulated without needing to build hundreds of prototypes like in the past.

Sorry for the OT
But what's special about DCW?

Directivity Control Waveguide (DCW™) Technology - Genelec.com

Directivity Control Waveguide (DCW™) for flat on- and off-axis response.

www.genelec.com

 

[thewas]

U
Sorry for the OT
But what's special about DCW?

Directivity Control Waveguide (DCW™) Technology - Genelec.com

Directivity Control Waveguide (DCW™) for flat on- and off-axis response.

www.genelec.com

As this is now really OT you got PM.

 

[YSC]

First: Who are you even talking to?
Second: Nobody said "ATCs with room treatment beat everything", that's you.
Third, take a chill pill. Coming off this aggressive isn't winning you any favors.

Yes - exactly! ATC build decent speakers, generally with top quality drivers in a less-than-amazing integration. I'd imagine they would do well to get a Klippel (if they don't have access to a decent anechoic chamber already) for R&D purposes.

However I have to wonder if part of their issue is the entire philosophy of "we don't do any corrective EQ in the crossover, just filters" - like... surely it isn't unreasonable to do some correction?


I've heard 150s and 200s, albeit not in the same room. The 200s have a larger 34mm tweeter in addition to the second woofer, so they do get substantially louder (though both will comfortably get into hearing damage territory with no complaint whatsoever).

They're both decent, though IMO the best balanced one is the 50 (it lacks bass extension in comparison, but I'd rather leave the lower octave or 2 to subs anyway to reduce IMD in the more audible midrange area). 9"->3" with the short waveguide loading ATC is fond of works better than 12"->3" or 15"->3" with regard to dispersion behavior.

IMO they don’t need crossover eq or so, their flatness on axis of the bigger ones from the SCM50 up measured out there is neutral enough, my personal impression is that their directivity in the highs are really needing the tweak, quite some measurement graphs out there showing a roll off past 10khz, which I believe is just the slight off axis artefacts as shown in the off axis plots. That’s the sad bit for them imo, when you can create good to great drivers, not integrating them to the best is like wasted talent imo, especially they are not cheap products to start of

 

[dfuller]

IMO they don’t need crossover eq or so, their flatness on axis of the bigger ones from the SCM50 up measured out there is neutral enough, my personal impression is that their directivity in the highs are really needing the tweak, quite some measurement graphs out there showing a roll off past 10khz, which I believe is just the slight off axis artefacts as shown in the off axis plots. That’s the sad bit for them imo, when you can create good to great drivers, not integrating them to the best is like wasted talent imo, especially they are not cheap products to start of

The way I see it, they do a decent job at integration. It's just not chart topping best-in-class. I do personally prefer their port philosophy which is more about reducing excursion than wringing every last hz out of a driver.

 

[YSC]

The way I see it, they do a decent job at integration. It's just not chart topping best-in-class. I do personally prefer their port philosophy which is more about reducing excursion than wringing every last hz out of a driver.

For that I have no objection, whatever it take, the smooth integration in bass with reasonable extension is fine for me, but won't go into another circle but personally I really hope they could get into the top of the chart category, when they have the basic drivers done right, then it comes to size, SPL and price difference of a choice

 

[Tangband]

Here is a review with lots of measurements of ATC SCM25A , an active studio monitor.

https://resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ATC-SCM25A-Pro.pdf

The measurements are really good, and the price is high.

 

[goat76]

Here is a review with lots of measurements of ATC SCM25A , an active studio monitor.

https://resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ATC-SCM25A-Pro.pdf

The measurements are really good, and the price is high.

View attachment 241092

The thing with that speaker model is that they can't use their own tweeter which they use in all the other models, it simply doesn't fit in the 25A.

 

[goat76]

IMO they don’t need crossover eq or so, their flatness on axis of the bigger ones from the SCM50 up measured out there is neutral enough, my personal impression is that their directivity in the highs are really needing the tweak, quite some measurement graphs out there showing a roll off past 10khz, which I believe is just the slight off axis artefacts as shown in the off axis plots. That’s the sad bit for them imo, when you can create good to great drivers, not integrating them to the best is like wasted talent imo, especially they are not cheap products to start of

My SCM40v2 speakers with ATC's own tweeter don't have a roll-off past 10kHz, maybe it's the old speaker models you've seen measurements of with the tweeters they used to have before they made their own?

 

[Tangband]

The thing with that speaker model is that they can't use their own tweeter which they use in all the other models, it simply doesn't fit in the 25A.

Yes - the tweeter they seems to use in SCM25A is this , original vifa, nowadays made by peerless / tymphany.
( with the reservation thats it might be a specially made driver, however they say that its made by vifa )

Vifa BC25SC55-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter (truncated)

Peerless BC25SC55-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter (truncated) Pre-coated textile dome for improved consistency Neodymium magnet (inherently shielded) Rear heat sink on magnet for improved power handling Ferrofluid cooled voice coil for improved power handling Flange (round part) 70mm (2.76") Flange...

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

Cost is only 21 dollar each for a DIYer. This is a really interesting tweeter with low distortion, as one can read at Zaph.com.
The small faceplate makes it interesting for MTM DIY.

Ino audio seems to use this tweeter in the model between Ino piP and pi60.

 

[Gregg Hermetech]

The thing with that speaker model is that they can't use their own tweeter which they use in all the other models, it simply doesn't fit in the 25A.

Unfortunately no SL spec drivers on the "x5A" series either. I had a listen to 25A and 45A before deciding to go with hew 20 ASL Pros, they sounded better to me.

 

[goat76]

Unfortunately no SL spec drivers on the "x5A" series either. I had a listen to 25A and 45A before deciding to go with hew 20 ASL Pros, they sounded better to me.

The 45A seems to have ATC's own tweeters according to their website. The "S-spec" one.
https://atc.audio/professional/loudspeakers/scm45a-pro/

 

[Gregg Hermetech]

Yep, but no SL mid/bass driver. 20s, 50s and up etc., have both, and sound the better for it, IMO.

 

[goat76]

Yep, but no SL mid/bass driver. 20s, 50s and up etc., have both, and sound the better for it, IMO.

Ah, I was totally absorbed by the tweeter discussion.

 

[thewas]

Here is a review with lots of measurements of ATC SCM25A , an active studio monitor.

https://resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/ATC-SCM25A-Pro.pdf

The measurements are really good, and the price is high.

View attachment 241092

The SCM25 ASL Pro had been also measured in the past by Sound & Recording where you can also see its directivity problems and resonance around 5 kHz:

Source: https://www.soundandrecording.de/heftarchiv/2010-08/atc-scm25-asl-pro/ (free download but the link doesn't seem to work currently)

 

[dfuller]

Unfortunately no SL spec drivers on the "x5A" series either. I had a listen to 25A and 45A before deciding to go with hew 20 ASL Pros, they sounded better to me.

I have to agree, the 50ASLs sound substantially better than the 25As or 45As. I've not heard the 20ASLs.

The SCM25 ASL Pro had been also measured in the past by Sound & Recording where you can also see its directivity problems and resonance around 5 kHz:

View attachment 241103
View attachment 241104

Source: https://www.soundandrecording.de/heftarchiv/2010-08/atc-scm25-asl-pro/ (free download but the link doesn't seem to work currently)

What's interesting is that the Resolution measurements don't show that massive midbass hump. There is one, but nowhere to the same degree. Wonder what's going on there?