$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[gnarly]

Funny that you would bring them up. The Ultra-X40 are a true point source with EQ and phase correction, and amazing pattern control for super imaging. I am using their smaller sibling, the Ultra-X20 in my home office/media room. The dynamics and imaging are simply stunning.

Recently a couple of buddies dropped by to hear them. One has JBL M2s at home and the other some of the larger Legacy speakers. Both were stunned at how good these compact speakers sounded. Both thought the imaging and "disappearing act" were better than they had heard from the audiophile world and including what they had at home.

In the attached images you can see my "room treatment"... works well and doesn't look like a science experiment.

Very cool. Your X20's are probably an even better fit for home use than the X40's.

I haven't heard the X20, but I have heard the X40 which was outstanding, and have owned a pair of UPA-1P's for over 20 years.
I keep a lot of different speakers running for comparisons' sake, from full-range electrostats to conventional store-bought stuff, to DIY synergies and line arrays.....
......the UPA-1Ps still impress ! (i won't talk about my big dogs...the MTS4a's )

Hey, aren't lots of books one of the best room treatments there is? Such a great combination of diffusion and absorption.
Oh, have you even bothered to measure thd on the X-20's ? Like in the Production Partner graph posted above?
(Personally, i don't put much stock in those graphs.....because i try to have enough speaker I'm never pushing it into higher thd.)

 

[Sancus]

Agreed! What are you doing in the 80-300 Hz region, if you don't mind me asking?

RIght now, nothing but EQ sadly. I was hoping to add some room treatment eventually, but haven't had time to figure that out yet. It's honestly not the end of the world, frequency response at default window size is pretty good there, but you can see the effect of SBIR in the waterfall.

If I had W371As I could probably use the null steering to eliminate much of the problem.

grafz below

Spoiler

(note single point measurement so ignore treble)

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

The 8C goes more than loud enough…..!

As mentioned in these videos with timestamp.

I have the 8m, they can play VERY loud.

I had them as well. They can definitely play loud enough for near or midfield, but OP has a huge room. Dutch&Dutch only specs them at 106dB/1m, which isn't really loud enough for a huge room.

 

[Battlebeast]

I had them as well. They can definitely play loud enough for near or midfield, but OP has a huge room. Dutch&Dutch only specs them at 106dB/1m, which isn't really loud enough for a huge room.

Persona 9H

Persona® 9H, the flagship of the Persona Series, is the most advanced, highest-performing loudspeaker we have ever designed.

www.paradigm.com

Persona 7F

4-driver, 3-way floorstanding

www.paradigm.com

9H is over budget at list price but likely worth it for being active with ARC built in. A true full range speaker.

maybe these- https://www.funkaudio.ca/store/c2/Loudspeakers_.html

Of course being a Kef fan I would lean toward the Blades

 

[Purité Audio]

I had them as well. They can definitely play loud enough for near or midfield, but OP has a huge room. Dutch&Dutch only specs them at 106dB/1m, which isn't really loud enough for a huge room.

It depends not on the room size but how far away you sit from the loudspeakers.
Keith

 

[gnarly]

It depends not on the room size but how far away you sit from the loudspeakers.
Keith

Hi Keith, This is still one of audio's biggest puzzles for me.....how audio responds in the Z axis...the distance from the speakers.

I know supposedly once in the acoustic far-field, that SPL should fall equally across the spectrum with an increase in distance (not the studio definition of far-field that divides near and far based simply based on on direct vs reflected sound.)

But even outdoors at distances clearly past the start of the acoustic far-field, tonality seems to vary with distance.. implying uneven response vs distance.
And tonality with distance seems to vary even more indoors, but with the room playing overlord, i kinda give up trying to make sense of it.

Anyway, the one thing I'm convinced of, is if you have to sit close in a room to have the SPL/bass/tonality you're looking for, the strength of the speaker is weak.
It's almost like any speaker/sub can make good SPL and bass up close, but it can only pee it so far...lol

 

[Doodski]

Hi Keith, This is still one of audio's biggest puzzles for me.....how audio responds in the Z axis...the distance from the speakers.

I know supposedly once in the acoustic far-field, that SPL should fall equally across the spectrum with an increase in distance (not the studio definition of far-field that divides near and far based simply based on on direct vs reflected sound.)

But even outdoors at distances clearly past the start of the acoustic far-field, tonality seems to vary with distance.. implying uneven response vs distance.
And tonality with distance seems to vary even more indoors, but with the room playing overlord, i kinda give up trying to make sense of it.

Anyway, the one thing I'm convinced of, is if you have to sit close in a room to have the SPL/bass/tonality you're looking for, the strength of the speaker is weak.
It's almost like any speaker/sub can make good SPL and bass up close, but it can only pee it so far...lol

Myself I think the OP needs the biggest baddest speaker and 4 subs that he can muster and not the smaller actives. So I am on the same page as you.

 

[MKR]

Myself I think the OP needs the biggest baddest speaker and 4 subs that he can muster and not the smaller actives. So I am on the same page as you.

I am all good with "biggest and baddest" ... Your specific recommendation would be? ...

 

[kemmler3D]

outdoors at distances clearly past the start of the acoustic far-field, tonality seems to vary with distance.. implying uneven response vs distance.
And tonality with distance seems to vary even more indoors, but with the room playing overlord, i kinda give up trying to make sense of it.

Even just in free air, high frequencies are absorbed much faster than low.

At 10khz you lose 100dB / KM or 10dB / 100m - that's not that big compared to an outdoor concert venue. Easily noticeable, and that's before we talk about diffusion from small features on the ground, trees, etc.

 

[Doodski]

I am all good with "biggest and baddest" ... Your specific recommendation would be? ...

I am not familiar with all the various models available in this price range although the JBL M2 comes to mind but may cut subs out of the selection due to budgetary constraints unless the OP can save enough by using his present amps to allocate funds to the sub purchases. The KEF blade works too although I think the JBL is preferable for me. Then there is the possibility of 4, JBL 4367 plus 4 subs for some serious power output and room filling SPL. I remember my parents living room @ ~35' x 20' x 20'(sloped ceiling.) had some very large floor standing KEFs in it and ~100W/ch amp and it was not enough to fill the room. It needed 4 speakers and more power. So I am inclined towards 4+ speakers, lots of power and subs.

 

[Duke]

RIght now, nothing but EQ sadly. I was hoping to add some room treatment eventually, but haven't had time to figure that out yet. It's honestly not the end of the world, frequency response at default window size is pretty good there, but you can see the effect of SBIR in the waterfall.

Spoiler

(note single point measurement so ignore treble)

Very nice ESPECIALLY for in-room curves!! The ear/brain system tends to sum peaks and dips which are within about 1/3 octave of each other, so your curve is probably going to sound smoother to the ears than it looks to the eyes.

I've found that simply using sufficient cone area can approximate a real-world (rather than textbook) cardioid pattern well down into that 80-300 Hz region, though not necessarily all the way down to the bottom of it. Something like the JBL M2 with its big 15" woofer would have good room interaction down almost as low as a cardioid, but with a lot more SPL capability.

I am all good with "biggest and baddest"

Earlier you listed six speakers on your "best I have ever heard" list, three of which were dipoles. At this time do you have any inclination towards dipoles or something with characteristics reminiscent of a good dipole, assuming it retains the output capability implied by your "biggest and baddest" criteria?

 

[bo_knows]

While not "low frequency controlled directivity" per se, I've been manufacturing a four-piece subwoofer system since 2006. The footprints of my four small subs are quite a bit smaller than effective bass trapping would be, and the distributed multiple sub approach is arguably more effective anyway -

Acoustician Matthew Poes on four subs (intelligently distributed) versus very extensive bass trapping, he gets his point across in about 30 seconds:

Cool, in my case that would be 8K worth of subs. Divorce papers served for sure.

 

[Duke]

Very good statement. Having experience really shows. So, we all need to get 4 subs. That means I have to buy 3 more! This audio hobby is getting too darned expensive.

Cool, in my case that would be 8K worth of subs. Divorce papers served for sure.

It's not necessary for all four subs to go all the way down, unless you have a very large room. The modal region is where a distributed multi-sub system offers the most benefit. Below the modal region, there is little advantage to having multiple in-room bass sources.

So theoretically you could have one big sub that goes down as deep as you would want, and then several smaller subs which don't really go down below the modal region. This is what acoustics and psychoacoustics expert Earl Geddes has been doing since about 2005: He has a single large sub which goes down very low, then three more smaller subs which cover the modal region up to the crossover point. Obviously the specifics are somewhat dependent on your room, but my point is, you don't necessarily need three more subs which have the same capability as the one big sub you're using now.

At this link is Earl Geddes on the subject of multiple subs, and here are his thoughts on loudspeaker design in general.

Myself I think the OP needs the biggest baddest speaker and 4 subs that he can muster and not the smaller actives.

"Big and bad" controlled-pattern satellite speakers + 4 subs is imo a winning formula.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I am all good with "biggest and baddest" ... Your specific recommendation would be? ...

I had a pair of JBL Everests for a number of years. Due to domestic considerations I was forced to pass them on to a friend who had larger accommodations.

These speakers are out of your price range, but are available on the second hand market at very good prices. I would recommend pairing them with very good subwoofers. These speakers are surprisingly neutral and image, but they are not as neutral or image as well as the lower cost M2s. That said, they are definitely bad ass and will kick ass. I still miss mine.

 

[Doodski]

I had a pair of JBL Everests for a number of years. Due to domestic considerations I was forced to pass them on to a friend who had larger accommodations.

These speakers are out of your price range, but are available on the second hand market at very good prices. I would recommend pairing them with very good subwoofers. These speakers are surprisingly neutral and image, but they are not as neutral or image as well as the lower cost M2s. That said, they are definitely bad ass and will kick ass. I still miss mine.

You are making good sense. Big speaker for a big room.

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

I am all good with "biggest and baddest" ... Your specific recommendation would be? ...

I would recommend Funk Audio for subwoofers if you do subs. Nathan Funk is in a league of his own when it comes to subwoofer design. His speakers also look very nice, but I have never seen measurements for them other than distortion, which do look very impressive.

 

[srrxr71]

It's not necessary for all four subs to go all the way down, unless you have a very large room. The modal region is where a distributed multi-sub system offers the most benefit. Below the modal region, there is little advantage to having multiple in-room bass sources.

So theoretically you could have one big sub that goes down as deep as you would want, and then several smaller subs which don't really go down below the modal region. This is what acoustics and psychoacoustics expert Earl Geddes has been doing since about 2005: He has a single large sub which goes down very low, then three more smaller subs which cover the modal region up to the crossover point. Obviously the specifics are somewhat dependent on your room, but my point is, you don't necessarily need three more subs which have the same capability as the one big sub you're using now.

At this link is Earl Geddes on the subject of multiple subs, and here are his thoughts on loudspeaker design in general.



"Big and bad" controlled-pattern satellite speakers + 4 subs is imo a winning formula.

Thanks for writing that. That’s how it’s going to end up for me. 2 little subs near the mains and one big guy which I might put near me.

Better read that and figure out my modal region.

 

[Ilkless]

I would only select large ATC for your application (loud with hi-fidelity in a large space) - nothing else will play as loud as cleanly. Good Luck finding a used one to audition - they rarely come up because users keep them. You did say “end-game”….

Except the KH420, M2, 4367, S360, 1236, 1238...

lol! the bravado with which ATC fetishists pretend their speakers are state of the art and beyond competition is amusing. Mostly because of the mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance involved.

 

[srrxr71]

I think this is why the low-frequency controlled directivity options are a requirement if you're going to spend this kind of money. It's very, very unlikely anyone is going to treat a domestic room well enough to eliminate all bass issues, and even in dedicated HTs, most of them won't do it either.

If I could afford 3 W371As for my LCR, I wouldn't hesitate.

If the space is meant for sound only then you will save a lot of money with treatments. Then you can just get big subs. Cheaper than 3 x W371

 

[srrxr71]

Except the KH420, M2, 4367, S360, 1236, 1238...

lol! the bravado with which ATC fetishists pretend their speakers are state of the art and beyond competition is amusing. Mostly because of the mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance involved.

But they were amazing in the 70s.