$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[MRC01]

With that kind of budget, you should consider hiring an acoustics firm and contractor to optimize the shape & materials of the room floor, walls & ceiling. Spending a few thousand on this may yield results that no amount of money spent on speakers can provide.

Put differently: $20k speakers in a room with $10k spent to optimize its acoustics, probably sounds better than $30k speakers in an unoptimized room.

PS: I'm not talking about room treatment, it goes without saying to dedicate a good % of the budget to this. I'm talking about changes in room shape, materials or structure, in addition to the room treatment.

 

[LTig]

https://www.psiaudio.swiss/a25-m-the-most-accurate-speaker-ever/

Looking at the technical data there is a significant directivity error in the midrange. Maybe because there are no proper wave guides? The midrange has none, the one for the tweeter looks unfamiliar.

 

[Mr. Widget]

As to best speakers I have ever heard, now that is a loaded question ... but off top of my head ... Talon Audio Firebird (now defunct), Wisdom Audio $1M system (line sources) at CES years ago, Genesis Prime, Klipschorns, Linkwitz Orion, Aerial 10Ts. Many others I am sure, but those are the ones that really stand out in my mind ... never heard a pair of active speakers, all passive

I should have been more specific. I didn't mean to ask which top of the line speakers you had heard.

I was trying to sleuth out what speakers you have heard that you liked the most. Speakers have their flavors. Every successful speaker has certain strengths, and every speaker design at every price point has had to work with certain compromises. Even the $1M Wisdom Audio speakers.

For example, perhaps you can accept a certain amount of coloration and the dynamic very "live" sound of a vintage Altec really excites you, or perhaps you have heard the LS3/5A mini monitors and their imaging and "disappearing act" blew you away... there are no wrong answers just as there is no best speaker.

Another example. The Revel Salons are near text book perfect speakers. They do just about everything right and at just a bit over $20K they are arguably a bargain, but the person who prefers a "more exciting" speaker like one of the better Klipsch or vintage Altecs may not care for the low sensitivity and extremely "polite" Salons.

 

[Duke]

The Quest can be enormously enjoyable in and of itself.

My room is roughly 20'x40', with 10' vaulted ceilings. Will be primarily for music, but definitely plan to pull double duty also for home theater.

Are you planning to add a center-channel speaker for home theater? Or using three identical speakers for the front left, center, and right, with the center speaker (and possibly all three) presumably behind the screen? Or would you prefer to forego a center channel speaker and use "phantom center mode", if the left and right speakers can place the dialogue onscreen for off-centerline viewers?

I do like loud for sure ...

At the risk of oversimplifying, big room + "I like it loud for sure" = big speakers.

As to best speakers I have ever heard, now that is a loaded question ... but off top of my head ... Talon Audio Firebird (now defunct), Wisdom Audio $1M system (line sources) at CES years ago, Genesis Prime, Klipschorns, Linkwitz Orion, Aerial 10Ts.

What stands out to me about your list is this: The Wisdom Audio speakers, Genesis Prime system, and Linkwitz Orion speakers are ALL dipoles. That's three out of your top six. None of the speakers in your first post are dipolar or dipolar-like, in my opinion. Imo there are worthwhile things a good dipole speaker does better than conventional speakers. Considering how rare dipole and dipole-like speakers are, the fact that half of the speakers on your "best I have ever heard" list are dipoles indicates you like something about them too.

How far out into the room could you place these speakers? Ime that makes a difference in whether or not dipolar speakers work well.

Note for this kind of money, of course I plan to listen to as many of these systems as possible...

Do you plan to attend Capital Audio Fest in a few weeks?

Also if you are considering using the services of an acoustician, let me recommend multi-award-winning acoustician Jeff Hedback. I've had the good fortune of working with Jeff on several projects, and ime he is really good at getting the desired acoustic results without ruining your room's aesthetics or your budget. He doesn't sell products, only world-class analysis and advice, and he is still affordable.

 

[bo_knows]

With that kind of budget, you should consider hiring an acoustics firm and contractor to optimize the shape & materials of the room floor, walls & ceiling. Spending a few thousand on this may yield results that no amount of money spent on speakers can provide.

Put differently: $20k speakers in a room with $10k spent to optimize its acoustics, probably sounds better than $30k speakers in an unoptimized room.

PS: I'm not talking about room treatment, it goes without saying to dedicate a good % of the budget to this. I'm talking about changes in room shape, materials or structure, in addition to the room treatment.

Not probably, for sure. Even good 5-6K speakers in an acoustically treated symmetrical space will "murder" 30K speakers in a normal living room (fireplace, opening on one side, windows and etc.).

 

[dfuller]

I do like loud for sure ... The Genelecs in the list cannot play loud?

They can - but not effortlessly like the big boys can.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Not probably, for sure. Even good 5-6K speakers in an acoustically treated symmetrical space will "murder" 30K speakers in a normal living room (fireplace, opening on one side, windows and etc.).

Hmmm... how about $5-6K speakers in a well designed and treated room will murder $30K speakers in a bad room?

The type of "normal" living room I grew up with had drapes, upholstered furniture, carpets, and an irregular shape that all worked towards making the room sound pretty good. A highly reflective room that is cube shaped on the other hand will certainly be an accomplice to the murder of even the best speakers.

 

[Sancus]

If you need loud I'd be leaning toward at least the KH420s if not something larger. Genelec 1237s may be worth a look.

KH420s cannot come close to keeping up with W371A Genelec's. The problem is KH420 has no way to improve its midbass output at all, subs won't help. But the W371A completely removes any real midbass limits from the 83XX.

KH420 and 8C are the weakest output options on the OPs active list.

 

[bo_knows]

Hmmm... how about $5-6K speakers in a well designed and treated room will murder $30K speakers in a bad room?

The type of "normal" living room I grew up with had drapes, upholstered furniture, carpets, and an irregular shape that all worked towards making the room sound pretty good. A highly reflective room that is cube shaped on the other hand will certainly be an accomplice to the murder of even the best speakers.

Agree, but you know what I meant. For serious critical listening, as close you can come to the mastering room the better.
That's my experience. I know this sounds arrogant or reserved for the lucky few but it is what it is.

For the room where a large number of room treatments can't be deployed, I would pick cardioid solutions (D&D8C or Kii Three + BXT). For a dedicated high-performance listening room, where room treatments and built-in solutions can be deployed, I would pick KEF Blade Meta 2.

 

[Duke]

Even good 5-6K speakers in an acoustically treated symmetrical space will "murder" 30K speakers in a normal living room (fireplace, opening on one side, windows and etc.).

Hmmm... how about $5-6K speakers in a well designed and treated room will murder $30K speakers in a bad room?

The type of "normal" living room I grew up with had drapes, upholstered furniture, carpets, and an irregular shape that all worked towards making the room sound pretty good.

For serious critical listening, as close you can come to the mastering room the better.
That's my experience. I know this sounds arrogant or reserved for the lucky few but it is what it is.

Loudspeaker/room interaction can be approached from the speaker end as well as from the room acoustics end, and preferably from both. Imo some types of loudspeakers work WITH the room moreso than others. In fact I would say that four out of the six speakers on @MKR's "best I have ever heard" list fall into the "works WITH the room" category: The Wisdoms, Genesis, Linkwitz, and the Klipschorn.

 

[dfuller]

KH420s cannot come close to keeping up with W371A Genelec's. The problem is KH420 has no way to improve its midbass output at all, subs won't help. But the W371A completely removes any real midbass limits from the 83XX.

KH420 and 8C are the weakest output options on the OPs active list.

A pair of W371As without tops are $18,000, I should hope they'd do better than $11,000 a pair full-range speakers...

I'm also not sure what you mean by midbass, as even a single speaker at 106dB anechoic doesn't really lose control until about 100hz. Crossing with well-suited subs (maybe 15-18"?) would be just fine.

I will agree on the 8Cs, the cardioid loading just does not lend itself to super-high output.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

If I had that kind of money and space, I think I would give very serious consideration to Kii3's + BXT. For starters, full range with woofers designed to match the top units, plus it's cardioid down to 50hz. N Core amplification, DSP to tailor response to room and listening preferences, plus their very own dedicated control unit. Truly a complete system.

And they look spectacular with just about any colorway you could want.

 

[Sancus]

I'm also not sure what you mean by midbass, as even a single speaker at 106dB anechoic doesn't really lose control until about 100hz. Crossing with well-suited subs (maybe 15-18"?) would be just fine.

Well we're not talking about price/performance here, we're talking about a system that costs $30K. I agree the prices aren't comparable. But there's no way to make the KH420 competitive on output *regardless* of price.

If you add subs to the KH420, your bottleneck becomes 100hz(or whatever is a bit higher than your sub crossover) to 300hz or so. The W371A crosses at 200-300hz and practically removes the Genelec woofer from the equation entirely. And if the 14"+12" woofer in the W371A is not enough for your sub-bass, you can always add subs *on top* of that.

So, cost-no-object, there is no way to make a KH420 play as loud as an 8361A + W371A, unless you try to do weird things with high sub crossovers. But that will produce really poor bass compared to the W371A's controlled directivity in any case.

 

[kemmler3D]

Might be a good time to take a step back and decide what kind of experience you're after:

1. The most sheer accuracy at and near LP ("they are here" / defined soundstage )
2. Strongest resemblance to a live concert ("you are there" / big soundstage )

I tend to agree that electrostats / dipoles should be on the list if #2 appeals to you. Most of OP's original list leaned #1 but they're both valid points of view that tend to indicate different choice of speaker.

 

[alex-z]

If you plan for these speakers to pull double duty as home theatre, how loud do you watch movies? Peak SPL can be quite important, models like the Genelec 8361A can hit the treble limiter at 105+dB. LFE output also needs to be considered, your LFE channel needs to be capable of 10dB more output than your primary speakers. Which is a significant challenge at 20-30Hz.

Also, are you using an AV receiver/processor? If so, passive speakers may be a better choice. Units with digital outputs like the Storm ISP Elite MK3 are a significant expense.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Here is a passive alternative from Reference 3A - Suma Zen model which is in your budget if you already have amps.

 

[YSC]

as an active diehard and fan I would personally choose the 8351/8361+W371 route, the W371 able to deal with a lot of room modes are a big plus for me when I don't want to massively treat the living room. (ok, I have nowhere near that amount of money anyway). but if asthetic and with ample room treatment, personally I would favour the KEF Blade meta, almost full range and very neutral with coaxial

 

[Holmz]

It's a dream to be able to do this. I think giving any recommendations wil be hard as the amount of people who have heard all these systems will be very small. That said. The biggest upgrade for me, in any context of audio has been digital room correction or DSP.

So if I had to give advice I'd look at the systems that offer this, specifically:

- Anything Genelec
- Anything Neumann
- D&D 8C
- Kii Three

From your passive shortlist, the most interesting speaker for me would be the new KEF Blade. But also here I'd want DSP.

I think the question you have to answer for yourself is how much DIY/research are you willing to do. Acourate is a fantastic system if you're willing to nerd out and I think you can get just about anything sound good with this. Genelec and Neumann come with their own solutions that are probably good.

If you want something that sounds good and just works I'd probably go D&D 8C.

^This^ we can argue about the D&D versus the Genelec, etc…

If going passive then the most similar would be some room correcting amp like maybe the TDAI-3400.

I’d probably go the active speakers if I was starting from scratch… maybe the 8361s +sub… and an MP-60 or some similiar AVP.
If it is only two people for HT, then maybe a 4.x.x or 6.x.x. Versus a 5.x.x or 7.x.x ?
(Because one doesn’t get a lot of benefit from a center until audience is off axis… so save those funds for the .x.x part, or AVP… IMO.)

 

[sdrichard]

So ... Opinions on the above choices? Anything not on the lists that I should consider?

You didn't say what kind of sound you prefer. Do you like more forward presentation or recessed? Do you prefer accuracy over 'sweetness'? etc, etc.

Without knowing further, I can vouch for the KEF Blade 2 meta. They should play well your room. (I am a happy non-meta owner.) If you are spending that amount of money, don't you also want a pair of cool-looking speakers, potentially with an interesting color? I don't know your room decor preference, but they probably fit in better with modern decor.

Outside of your list, an interesting option is Legacy Aeris (https://legacyaudio.com/products/view/aeris). They are efficient, can go down to about 20hz and can play very loud. And yet, its sound can be very detailed and relaxed. The mids and highs are actually open air dipole, not your typical box speakers. The bass has its own 1000w amp, so you can dedicate your own electronics to the mids and highs (did I say they can play loud? ). I've heard and owned various Legacy speakers and was always impressed by their sound.

Have fun shopping.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I can vouch for the Perlisten S7t. Very well behaved in my (complicated) room. One is close to a corner (quarter space I believe is called) and one has a was behind (half space). Easy to EQ 20-500 Hz with Dirac and the imaging is huge; deep and wide. Excellent speakers.