Screen wall speaker compromise options (toe in, enclosure volume, etc)

[Recluse-Animator]

I would put the tools somewhere else and use that space for a dual bass array infinite baffle sub setup. Best bass money can buy.
Floor standing speakers and mount the screen in the ceiling so you can get more room between the screen and wall and put bass traps on the wall with cutouts for the subs.
Best setup you can get in that space without going to a soffit mount setup which would require angled walls.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

I'm still trying to understand the difference between a soffit install and a baffle wall. So far as I can tell the terms are generally used depending on whether it's a new wall or opening space in an existing wall, but the overall goals and build are similar

People use the terms wrong because many think they're the same.

Soffit mounting is mounting the speaker precisely into the wall structure as is shown in the Genelec link.
A baffle wall is just a baffle to the sides, between, under and over the speakers. you can have a baffle wall in the middle of the room.

 

[sumitagarwal]

I would put the tools somewhere else and use that space for a dual bass array infinite baffle sub setup. Best bass money can buy.
Floor standing speakers and mount the screen in the ceiling so you can get more room between the screen and wall and put bass traps on the wall with cutouts for the subs.
Best setup you can get in that space without going to a soffit mount setup which would require angled walls.

I'm not that concerned about screen distance with a woven screen: https://pixelht.com/25-acoustically...terials-reviewed-and-measured/#Best_Acoustics

Seems like soffit might be want I want to do. Can I angle speakers within a soffit or I must angle the entire soffit?

 

[Recluse-Animator]

I'm not that concerned about screen distance with a woven screen: https://pixelht.com/25-acoustically...terials-reviewed-and-measured/#Best_Acoustics

Seems like soffit might be want I want to do. Can I angle speakers within a soffit or I must angle the entire soffit?

I meant that if you use floor standing speakers it would good to have some room between the speakers and the wall.

For a soffit mounting the walls must be angled.

 

[Dal1as]

Are you saying those doors are in an unfortunate location because you would recommend putting the speakers there, or for some other reason? For a traditional theater effect I was planning to keep the LCR's behind the AT screen. Viewing angle is something like 47-50 degrees. Behind that I will have a second row on a riser.

3/4 of the way back there is a half height half width wall. Beyond that is another 10 feet or so that is being used as space for musical instruments.

For not I will set it up 7.2, since Atmos is extremely rare in the content my wife and I watch and Atmos doesn't have wide support in gaming yet (also a relatively rare use of our last theater). My receiver supports 7.2.4 channels and so I'll add 4 in-ceiling heights once it seems worth it.

Yes, those are folding doors on the right for closets. The air space in there is continuous with the air space for the tool closet behind the screen.

My approach to budget is simply to get something reasonably proportional to what I'm spending. If I spend a lot more then I should get a lot more, and there should be few or zero negatives compared to cheaper options. I think the JBL Synthesis and high-tier Monitor Audio in-walls I've earmarked give a general sense of the range that's caught my eye. I guess those look around $3K for LCR, but happy to spend more or less if the rationale is there.

For the speakers I've earmarked they all make an attempt to control dispersion. The MA do that with pivoting MF and LF for the left and right, and with a ribbon for the center, while the JBL's have relatively narrow waveguides and asymmetrical waveguides for the left and right.

Yes. The front left and right could be wider and toed in preferably. Dolby spec actually has them outside the screen when using a 16/9.

Best practice would be to keep each bed layer speaker somewhat equal distance away from each other so about a 60 degree spread would only have your center to main at 30 degrees but your mains to side surrounds much farther which causes a huge hole when panning to the side and back. Just something to think about.

As for Erin's in wall review. Unfortunately he did not test the Monoliths THX, JBLs, KEF THX, or Triads which are all good in wall speakers. I've heard all but the KEFs but they are supposed to be good.

I recommended the Monoliths as they work good with no toe in as they have a wide even dispersion.

A soffit is just a small baffle wall (edited for context) built into a room. There are many ways to build an infinate baffle wall. You can use in walls, normal speakers in a soft baffle wall, a curved or angled wall, etc. The main goal is to make the wall inert and use soundproofing. Even with the woven screen you will have some splash back.

Here is some good reading.

Why so few flush mounted speakers?

I'm talking about building a baffle wall and flush mounting speakers into this wall to vastly reduce front wall SBIR and diffraction. I've seen many mastering studios do this but it's basically non-existent in the audiophile world even when people are spending $100,000+ on their systems...

www.audiosciencereview.com

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/baffle-wall-or-soft-soffit-wall.2947850/

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/baffle-wall-mounted-speakers.1198007/

Some pics are missing in the older thread but the pdfs work. Good insight though.

By the way. The minute you begin toeing a speaker and not the wall you introduce reflections which defeats the purpose of a baffle wall.

Also spend more on subs and bass management. At least 2 ported 15s for that room.

Good luck and have fun. It can be a rabbit hole.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Thank you!! This is exactly the kind of insight I've been looking for, especially about toeing in speakers but not the baffle wall. I actually wonder how that might apply to speakers with angled or pivoting drivers?

In regards to the speakers that have/haven't been tested yet, I'm feeling pretty confident in the JBL SCL-6 as a center, but the SCL-7 with the asymmetric waveguides for Left and Right use seem a bit more uncertain based on measurements. However, that review seemed to be evaluating it more as standard speaker rather than a special purpose speaker designed intentionally for listening off-axis an for controlling room dispersion.

 

[Dal1as]

Thank you!! This is exactly the kind of insight I've been looking for, especially about toeing in speakers but not the baffle wall. I actually wonder how that might apply to speakers with angled or pivoting drivers?

In regards to the speakers that have/haven't been tested yet, I'm feeling pretty confident in the JBL SCL-6 as a center, but the SCL-7 with the asymmetric waveguides for Left and Right use seem a bit more uncertain based on measurements. However, that review seemed to be evaluating it more as standard speaker rather than a special purpose speaker designed intentionally for listening off-axis an for controlling room dispersion.

No problem. I was recently designing and researching for an all in wall baffle/soffit theater. You may get more traction on this subject over at the AVS dedicated theater room sub forum.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

A soffit is just a small baffle built into a room. There are many ways to build an infinate baffle wall. You can use in walls, normal speakers in a soft baffle wall, a curved or angled wall, etc.

This is misinformation.

I have clearly shown by providing the Genelec link and with pictures that flush mounting and baffle wall mounting is not the same as soffit mounting.

There's only one way to build an infinite baffle be it a wall or a speaker cabinet and that is by sealing of the front of the drivers from the back of the drivers.

 

[Dal1as]

This is misinformation.

I have clearly shown by providing the Genelec link and with pictures that flush mounting and baffle wall mounting is not the same as soffit mounting.

There's only one way to build an infinite baffle be it a wall or a speaker cabinet and that is by sealing of the front of the drivers from the back of the drivers.

You equated an office cubical divider to a baffle wall too.

No misinformation. You're just not understanding what I'm saying or what a soffit is.

As for the genelic link how are they different? A baffle is a baffle. Infinate baffle is a term and affect. A soffit uses the infinate baffle approach by being designed into the room and is essentially a baffle wall.

Not a cube divider.

Read this.

In recording studios soffits are sometimes created along the front walls of a control room or studio space as an area to place large studio monitors. These are often recessed into the front wall of the room such that their baffles are flush with the wall surrounding them. They may be supported by being attached to the wall, flown from the ceiling joists above, or on stands attached directly to the foundation.

Soffit - inSync

In architecture a soffit is the underside of a structural component, such as a beam, arch,... Read more »

www.sweetwater.com

A soffit is just a baffle wall. No one said put up a baffle or old cubicle divider which would not give the infinate baffle advantages which is the whole point of a baffle wall in the 1st place. They can be curved, flat, have all angled walls, or whatever but they are on and the same.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

The office divider was to make a point that a baffle wall doesn't need to be in a wall.
You can build a similar baffle for speakers with wheels and all you just need to make cutouts for them.

"There's only one way to build an infinite baffle be it a wall or a speaker cabinet and that is by sealing of the front of the drivers from the back of the drivers."

It has nothing to do with size of the front baffle.

If air from the front of the drivers can get to the rear of the drivers it's no longer an infinite baffle.
The front and rear of the drivers need to be in separate spaces sealed from one another.
A sealed speaker cabinet is an infinite baffle design.
Ported or open baffle / dipole speakers are not.

 

[Dal1as]

The office divider was to make a point that a baffle wall doesn't need to be in a wall.
You can build a similar baffle for speakers with wheels and all you just need to make cutouts for them.

"There's only one way to build an infinite baffle be it a wall or a speaker cabinet and that is by sealing of the front of the drivers from the back of the drivers."

It has nothing to do with size of the front baffle.

If air from the front of the drivers can get to the rear of the drivers it's no longer an infinite baffle.
The front and rear of the drivers need to be in separate spaces sealed from one another.
A sealed speaker cabinet is an infinite baffle design.
Ported or open baffle / dipole speakers are not.

It has everything to do with the size of the front baffle. What are you talking about? That's the whole premise of how an infinate baffle works and why baffle walls and soffits are used.

You really need to go read some reviews on how Amir and others review in walls and they explain this.

Also maybe read up on how people like Dennis Erskine made baffle walls.

 

[Recluse-Animator]

It has everything to do with the size of the front baffle. What are you talking about? That's the whole premise of how an infinate baffle works and why baffle walls and soffits are used.

You really need to go read some reviews on how Amir and others review in walls and they explain this.

Also maybe read up on how people like Dennis Erskine made baffle walls.

Were talking about two different things here which you don't seam to understand even with multiple tries.

I'm not gonna repeat myself as you clearly don't understand the subject.

 

[Dal1as]

Lol ok.

Answer me 3 questions. What is the goal of the studio setup using soffit mounting and also how is it different than using an infinate baffle setup with a baffle wall like is done in theaters?

Why do Amir, Erin, and others measure in walls on large baffles they make?

 

[nathan]

Long time reader, first time caller. Thought I'd take my questions here especially given the recent in-wall speaker activity!

For my home theater I'm using the existing wall between my theater and my pantry and my tool closet as a baffle wall.

In particular I've been driving myself crazy on whether to use sealed speakers or infinite baffle speakers, and whether to try to achieve some type of LR toe-in or forgo that for a flatter smoother baffle wall and potentially "better" speakers.

I think the attached images illustrate the options I've identified so far, but I'm open to all insights and speaker suggestions!

View attachment 232829

View attachment 232830

View attachment 232832

View attachment 232833

View attachment 232841

You are very fortunate to have this nice space to work with.

It makes a lot of sense that you are taking your time to do it one step at a time, to optimize the final results.

That said, it is way too soon to pick gear.

I would recommend you get the room ready, first.

1). Is there a door at the top of those stairs? If not, I would recommend adding one.
2). Is there a way to wall off the left hand opening?
3). Is the tool room particularly large?

Basically, with audio, an "open concept" space is very challenging -- especially for surround sound and ESPECIALLY for bass.

---

The other usual "room" issues are:

1. Noise coming into the room.

I know everyone talks about soundproofing in the sense of don't wake the wife/baby/neighbor. But what is equally important: hearing the wife/baby/neighbor, HVAC, refrigerator, leaf blower, passing traffic, airplanes, etc will "ruin" the audio in the room by distracting you AND by raising the noise floor of the room. You may have dedicated electronics and high resolution speakers capable of 100 decibels of sound.....and only be about to use less than half that range, because the noise floor in the room is so high. Then you will run into the "turn up the system to hear the dialog, turn down the system when the action starts because it is too loud" situation.....since you have to turn it up to make quieter sounds like dialog intelligible over the background noise of a normal domestic room.

2. Noise exiting the room.

In some homes, this is the deal breaker. You will be stuck listening to headphones while watching a movie otherwise the household will not be able to sleep at night.

3. HVAC

A theater room needs several times more air-conditioning than any other room in the house, other than a small enclosed kitchen. If you aren't comfortable in your theater room, because it is hot, stuffy, humid, or lacking in oxygen, you won't be inclined to relax in there and use the room.

 

[nathan]

But if you want to jump into the whole speakers-in-the-wall situation, these articles are a good place to start:

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322baffle-walls/ and http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/20131129baffle-wall-case-study-acoustic-frontiers-demo-room/

With some good photos to inspire you:

 

[sumitagarwal]

You are very fortunate to have this nice space to work with.

It makes a lot of sense that you are taking your time to do it one step at a time, to optimize the final results.

That said, it is way too soon to pick gear.

I would recommend you get the room ready, first.

1). Is there a door at the top of those stairs? If not, I would recommend adding one.
2). Is there a way to wall off the left hand opening?
3). Is the tool room particularly large?

Basically, with audio, an "open concept" space is very challenging -- especially for surround sound and ESPECIALLY for bass.

---

The other usual "room" issues are:

1. Noise coming into the room.

I know everyone talks about soundproofing in the sense of don't wake the wife/baby/neighbor. But what is equally important: hearing the wife/baby/neighbor, HVAC, refrigerator, leaf blower, passing traffic, airplanes, etc will "ruin" the audio in the room by distracting you AND by raising the noise floor of the room. You may have dedicated electronics and high resolution speakers capable of 100 decibels of sound.....and only be about to use less than half that range, because the noise floor in the room is so high. Then you will run into the "turn up the system to hear the dialog, turn down the system when the action starts because it is too loud" situation.....since you have to turn it up to make quieter sounds like dialog intelligible over the background noise of a normal domestic room.

2. Noise exiting the room.

In some homes, this is the deal breaker. You will be stuck listening to headphones while watching a movie otherwise the household will not be able to sleep at night.

3. HVAC

A theater room needs several times more air-conditioning than any other room in the house, other than a small enclosed kitchen. If you aren't comfortable in your theater room, because it is hot, stuffy, humid, or lacking in oxygen, you won't be inclined to relax in there and use the room.

Thank you for the thoughts and the kind words.

I'm including a more zoomed out view which may be helpful.

1) There is a door at the top of the stairs, and it's a fairly solid and effective one. I will be adding more sealant around it and may try adding some treatments to the stairwell itself. Thankfully the door leads into the kitchen on the first floor, and the bedrooms are all on the second and third floors. It's relatively rare that the theater will be used at a time when anybody in the kitchen will be bothered.
2) I think you're referring to the way my initial images were cut-off. To the left there is the gym, which has it's own door. Viewers will pass through the gym to the basement bathroom
3) I think the tool room is sort of a largish closet size? As you can see, it is contiguous with the two side closets although the space is too small to walk through. It's built that way to enclose existing piping

Noise entering-
We're very lucky that despite being in the middle of Brooklyn the house is somehow very quiet, except for the summertime helicopters taking Wall St folks to the Hamptons. The room currently has a very large custom wine fridge that can get noisy, and which I'll probably move to the dining room. We're putting a Mitsubishi mini-split heat pump at the far end of the room, which I find to be extremely quiet

Noise exiting-
My wife and I typically watch together, and when I occasionally game I typically wear headphones to play with friends. In rare instances I'll have a friend over to play games late and in our old house it would sometimes keep my wife awake until we turn it down. This home is much larger and more solid, and so far noise transmission seems very low

HVAC-
Yup, completely agree! The 12,000 BTU heat pump we're putting in should be sufficient for handling the sunken basement in this NYC climate. The floors have radiant heat so winter should be comfy too.

 

[sumitagarwal]

I guess I'm still somewhat trying to determine the best screen wall options:

1. Existing sheetrock baffle wall with sealed in-wall speakers
2. Existing sheetrock baffle wall with sealed full depth speakers (no toe-in)
3. Existing sheetrock baffle wall with open-baffle in-wall speakers in stud bay
4. Existing sheetrock baffle wall with open-baffle in-wall speakers with no rear enclosure, using closet and pantry as infinite baffle
5. False wall behind screen with floor-standing speakers in existing closet and pantry
6. False wall behind screen with floor-standing speakers and "soft" non-structural baffle wall made of insulation around the speakers

Too many options! Especially when my contractor is ready to get to work...

 

[nathan]

1, 2 and 3 are all functionally equivalent.
4 would be a rare situation for which I know of no off the shelf commercial speaker design.
6 is just a better version of 5.

So really, just two options:

a. 1/2/3
b. 6/5

And if you are the kind of person that might like to switch out speakers in a year or three, then really B is the best option. But if you choose B you will need to eat up some space from the tool area and the pantry area. If you are not willing to carve out space from there and build a new wall in there, then option A is the best. Some nice in wall speakers.

 

[Dal1as]

Thank you for the thoughts and the kind words.

I'm including a more zoomed out view which may be helpful.

1) There is a door at the top of the stairs, and it's a fairly solid and effective one. I will be adding more sealant around it and may try adding some treatments to the stairwell itself. Thankfully the door leads into the kitchen on the first floor, and the bedrooms are all on the second and third floors. It's relatively rare that the theater will be used at a time when anybody in the kitchen will be bothered.
2) I think you're referring to the way my initial images were cut-off. To the left there is the gym, which has it's own door. Viewers will pass through the gym to the basement bathroom
3) I think the tool room is sort of a largish closet size? As you can see, it is contiguous with the two side closets although the space is too small to walk through. It's built that way to enclose existing piping

Noise entering-
We're very lucky that despite being in the middle of Brooklyn the house is somehow very quiet, except for the summertime helicopters taking Wall St folks to the Hamptons. The room currently has a very large custom wine fridge that can get noisy, and which I'll probably move to the dining room. We're putting a Mitsubishi mini-split heat pump at the far end of the room, which I find to be extremely quiet

Noise exiting-
My wife and I typically watch together, and when I occasionally game I typically wear headphones to play with friends. In rare instances I'll have a friend over to play games late and in our old house it would sometimes keep my wife awake until we turn it down. This home is much larger and more solid, and so far noise transmission seems very low

HVAC-
Yup, completely agree! The 12,000 BTU heat pump we're putting in should be sufficient for handling the sunken basement in this NYC climate. The floors have radiant heat so winter should be comfy too.

Ok. That definately gives a better look at things.

If you don't plan on moving any of the doorways having the speakers in the room with a soft baffle wall would stick out too much imo.

Depending on how much work you want to do you could do 2 things.

1st is just installing 3 identical in walls of your choosing behind the screen and make back boxes. If you crossover around 80 hz the size will not matter much just make sure they are not too small and that the sizes are all identical so the tonality of each speaker is the same.

2nd would be to bring the screen out about a foot and make 30 degree (ish) baffle wall enclosures for the left and right speaker.

Where do you plan on putting the sub/subs?

 

[sumitagarwal]

1, 2 and 3 are all functionally equivalent.
4 would be a rare situation for which I know of no off the shelf commercial speaker design.
6 is just a better version of 5.

So really, just two options:

a. 1/2/3
b. 6/5

And if you are the kind of person that might like to switch out speakers in a year or three, then really B is the best option. But if you choose B you will need to eat up some space from the tool area and the pantry area. If you are not willing to carve out space from there and build a new wall in there, then option A is the best. Some nice in wall speakers.

With 1, 2, and 3 being functionally equivalent I think I would lean towards option 2 for greater speaker selection among less compromised designs and less installation inconsistency. I'm ok chewing up some (or even a lot) of the pantry and tool space, especially the tool space which I can essentially sacrifice to the theater if it could be truly beneficial.

4- I figure there must be a reason why this isn't often seen, but still unsure why. Even in high-end recording studios the approach appears to be sealed or ported speakers in a soffit, not open baffle speakers mounted with the backside in a dedicated closet. If studios don't attempt it, I won't either.

6/5- Once I put this together I'm very unlikely to replace speakers for the lifetime of the theater unless a speaker fails or we move (we bought this home for the long haul, but you never know). Again, I'm willing to sacrifice the space but it's not sounding beneficial versus "soffit mounting" speakers into the existing wall.

Ok. That definately gives a better look at things.

If you don't plan on moving any of the doorways having the speakers in the room with a soft baffle wall would stick out too much imo.

Depending on how much work you want to do you could do 2 things.

1st is just installing 3 identical in walls of your choosing behind the screen and make back boxes. If you crossover around 80 hz the size will not matter much just make sure they are not too small and that the sizes are all identical so the tonality of each speaker is the same.

2nd would be to bring the screen out about a foot and make 30 degree (ish) baffle wall enclosures for the left and right speaker.

Where do you plan on putting the sub/subs?

I've seen many recommendations, I believe including QSC and Grimani, recommending aiming speakers at the center of the back row which for me would be a 15 degree toe-in. With a 12" wide speaker that brings the outer edge 3 inches closer to the screen than the inner edge. I'm wondering if I could possibly use the existing wall, cut into it at a 15 degree angle for the L and R channels, and use thicker foam from the outer edges of the L and R channels, to create a baffle wall that's slightly recessed towards the center.

See the attached design from Anthony Grimani, which uses three separate baffle walls but appears to do something similar to what I'm talking about.

For the subs I think I have a lot of options. Right now I'm thinking of putting an array of infinite baffle subs along the bottom edge of the screen wall, keeping them low with relatively small diameters so their force is concentrated where the wall is most rigid near the floor. Or I could put 1-2 conventional box sub(s) in the tool closet with an opening at the bottom of the wall. I could also put a sub in between the two closets with the folding doors, or under the stairs (not ideal since that will transmit more to the kitchen), under the second row riser, or maybe even in the boiler room. Subs other than anything in the screen wall will be future projects.