Screen wall speaker compromise options (toe in, enclosure volume, etc)

[Dal1as]

Well good luck and have fun with it. It's a rabbit hole for sure. Focus on the room, speakers, and the bass management and you'll be happy.

 

[nathan]

With 1, 2, and 3 being functionally equivalent I think I would lean towards option 2 for greater speaker selection among less compromised designs and less installation inconsistency. I'm ok chewing up some (or even a lot) of the pantry and tool space, especially the tool space which I can essentially sacrifice to the theater if it could be truly beneficial.

Yep, 2 arguably has the most options on the market. Of course, it also involves the most construction. And, technically, few speakers in category 2 are designed to be put in a wall BUT using EQ (like Audyssey, Dirac, etc) will adjust the speaker response in most cases to function as if they were made to be put in a wall.

#1 and #3 are the most common methods, and typically the choices on the market are engineered for in wall placement. My personal preference is #1 because it is the most convenient, most controlled and predictable. But the speakers you want may not be available in that form factor, of course.

When going with #2, ideally you avoid ported speakers -- and if they do have ports they must be front facing.

----

For the angled "baffle wall" I suspect you will be okay doing something like in your diagram. I have no experience with that concept in person, however. I would possibly try to make the left and right a flat plane instead of an S shaped plane. (I don't like the setup where ONLY the section with he speaker is angled, and I prefer more of the wall around the speaker to be in the same flat plane as the speaker).

A picture may help with the idea of what I would suggest (again, based on no personal experience with an angled baffle wall):

 

[sumitagarwal]

Yep, 2 arguably has the most options on the market. Of course, it also involves the most construction. And, technically, few speakers in category 2 are designed to be put in a wall BUT using EQ (like Audyssey, Dirac, etc) will adjust the speaker response in most cases to function as if they were made to be put in a wall.

#1 and #3 are the most common methods, and typically the choices on the market are engineered for in wall placement. My personal preference is #1 because it is the most convenient, most controlled and predictable. But the speakers you want may not be available in that form factor, of course.

When going with #2, ideally you avoid ported speakers -- and if they do have ports they must be front facing.

----

For the angled "baffle wall" I suspect you will be okay doing something like in your diagram. I have no experience with that concept in person, however. I would possibly try to make the left and right a flat plane instead of an S shaped plane. (I don't like the setup where ONLY the section with he speaker is angled, and I prefer more of the wall around the speaker to be in the same flat plane as the speaker).

A picture may help with the idea of what I would suggest (again, based on no personal experience with an angled baffle wall):

I too, in theory, like option #1 the most but there are so few measured sealed in-wall speakers and those that have been measured look to be disappointing.

I really really wish that there were good reviews or measurements available for the Monitor Audio CP-WT380IDC. On paper they are perfect: sealed, three-driver, concentric MF+HF, can be angled up to 15 degrees on the MF+HF, uses their higher-tier components.

So, in theory, they're perfect. In actuality, who knows? I'm thinking of the poor results on the sealed B&W and Focal in-walls despite their prices.

 

[sumitagarwal]

I already have four Goldenear Triton 2's which I had assumed I couldn't use for this project but I have realized a few things: 1) the large foot is removable, 2) I don't need a flat-faced speaker and in fact Anthony Grimani seems to intentionally be using curved face speakers.

The biggest remaining issue or consideration is the side-firing integrated subwoofers... how would I go about creating my wall cutouts to accommodate those?

 

[nathan]

I already have four Goldenear Triton 2's which I had assumed I couldn't use for this project but I have realized a few things: 1) the large foot is removable, 2) I don't need a flat-faced speaker and in fact Anthony Grimani seems to intentionally be using curved face speakers.

The biggest remaining issue or consideration is the side-firing integrated subwoofers... how would I go about creating my wall cutouts to accommodate those?

I personally wouldn't try to put these IN a wall. Note too that while I cannot find proper CEA 2034 measurements for that model, Golden Ear measurements I can find show a speaker that is far from flat and neutral.

GoldenEar BRX Review (high-end Bookshelf Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the GoldenEar BRX "reference" bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $1,598 a pair. BRX looks pretty fancy but doesn't weigh a lot: It is an unusual design in passive compact speakers by having dual passive radiators...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'd guess you could sell those and buy something designed for in wall use that measures better.

KEF in walls seem to measure well. In fact, based on all the measurements on in wall speakers I can find, those or some of the Revels would be what I would choose.

Triad in walls, while I haven't seen detailed measurements, are certainly popular with high end theater designers, so presumably these at least EQ well.

If you want to use the Golden Ear then using them in room, or building a small room behind the screen for them, separate from your seating area by a transparent screen and fabric screen wall, seems like the more reliable choice.

 

[sumitagarwal]

I personally wouldn't try to put these IN a wall. Note too that while I cannot find proper CEA 2034 measurements for that model, Golden Ear measurements I can find show a speaker that is far from flat and neutral.

GoldenEar BRX Review (high-end Bookshelf Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the GoldenEar BRX "reference" bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $1,598 a pair. BRX looks pretty fancy but doesn't weigh a lot: It is an unusual design in passive compact speakers by having dual passive radiators...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'd guess you could sell those and buy something designed for in wall use that measures better.

KEF in walls seem to measure well. In fact, based on all the measurements on in wall speakers I can find, those or some of the Revels would be what I would choose.

Triad in walls, while I haven't seen detailed measurements, are certainly popular with high end theater designers, so presumably these at least EQ well.

If you want to use the Golden Ear then using them in room, or building a small room behind the screen for them, separate from your seating area by a transparent screen and fabric screen wall, seems like the more reliable choice.

Thanks, I did manage to find these measurements which I'm bad at interpreting and don't follow the same format as around here. Do you have an interpretation of these?

GoldenEar Technology Triton Two loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements The GoldenEar Triton Two's B-weighted sensitivity on its tweeter axis was 91dB/2.83V/m, which both agrees with the specified figure and is significantly higher than the norm. The electrical impedance (fig.1) drops below 4 ohms in the midrange and above the audioband...

www.stereophile.com

Test Report: GoldenEar Technology Triton Two Tower Speakers Page 4

EXTENDED TEST BENCH

www.soundandvision.com

 

[NiagaraPete]

Why not look at something like this

AV Installation Speakers - Genelec.com

An outstanding space deserves premium quality audio. Genelec installation speakers are not just powerful, accurate, compact and beautifully designed, they are also extremely easy to install and will provide decades of reliable service.

www.genelec.com

 

[nathan]

Thanks, I did manage to find these measurements which I'm bad at interpreting and don't follow the same format as around here. Do you have an interpretation of these?

GoldenEar Technology Triton Two loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements The GoldenEar Triton Two's B-weighted sensitivity on its tweeter axis was 91dB/2.83V/m, which both agrees with the specified figure and is significantly higher than the norm. The electrical impedance (fig.1) drops below 4 ohms in the midrange and above the audioband...

www.stereophile.com

Test Report: GoldenEar Technology Triton Two Tower Speakers Page 4

EXTENDED TEST BENCH

www.soundandvision.com

The sound and vision measurments are useless here, but the stereophile ones are useful. The words here say that lateral dispersion is good but the measurements sure don’t look very remarkable to me. I’d guess that on axis, in a well damped room, they can sound good, and that since you already own them and you like them, you might as well keep them especially since budget is not unlimited.

But speaking of budget: setting up the room to hide these behind the screen will require some construction, and I can’t speak to whether that is worth the money versus selling these and buying something made to be in the wall, which therefor means less money spent on modifying the room.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Why not look at something like this

AV Installation Speakers - Genelec.com

An outstanding space deserves premium quality audio. Genelec installation speakers are not just powerful, accurate, compact and beautifully designed, they are also extremely easy to install and will provide decades of reliable service.

www.genelec.com

Interesting and of course great pedigree. Unfortunately as with so many in-walls we don't have measurements =(

 

[nathan]

Why not look at something like this

AV Installation Speakers - Genelec.com

An outstanding space deserves premium quality audio. Genelec installation speakers are not just powerful, accurate, compact and beautifully designed, they are also extremely easy to install and will provide decades of reliable service.

www.genelec.com

Those look very cool. What’s the msrp? Have you seen cea2034 measurments of them?

 

[sumitagarwal]

Those look very cool. What’s the msrp? Have you seen cea2034 measurments of them?

I am now seriously considering the previous generation of those, the AIW26. Only thing is their shallow depth might make it harder to install them toed-in in the wall.

 

[nathan]

Typically Genelec has such wide even dispersion, I think you could get away with not toe-ing them in. Caveat: I haven't seen measurements for these particular models.

 

[sumitagarwal]

I'm also still evaluating using my Goldenear Triton 2's, and my biggest question there is how I would accommodate the side-firing subwoofers at the bottom of the speaker cabinet

 

[nathan]

I'm also still evaluating using my Goldenear Triton 2's, and my biggest question there is how I would accommodate the side-firing subwoofers at the bottom of the speaker cabinet

If you do that then something like these are ideal:

Note: I suspect that means some more construction.

Lots of examples; https://www.avsforum.com/threads/minimalist-approach-to-screen-wall.837848/

 

[sumitagarwal]

If you do that then something like these are ideal:

View attachment 233790

Note: I suspect that means some more construction.

Lots of examples; https://www.avsforum.com/threads/minimalist-approach-to-screen-wall.837848/

Well, the speakers already have built-in 1200w subwoofers in each speaker. Which would be great except that they fire to the sides, not to the front. So maybe I need to create an opening in the baffle wall on either side of the speaker from about a foot down?

Something like this?

 

[NiagaraPete]

I am now seriously considering the previous generation of those, the AIW26. Only thing is their shallow depth might make it harder to install them toed-in in the wall.

They also have an in wall sub https://www.genelec.com/5041a all the build specs are on the Genelec site.

 

[nathan]

Well, the speakers already have built-in 1200w subwoofers in each speaker. Which would be great except that they fire to the sides, not to the front. So maybe I need to create an opening in the baffle wall on either side of the speaker from about a foot down?

Something like this?

Well, I’m suggesting a completely open space (like a large closest essentially) behind the screen for a speaker like the Golden Ear.

You could try your solution but it would be unpredictable so you should be prepared to revise the solution based on measuring how it works. It is a worthwhile experiment just not as flexible or easy.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Well, I’m suggesting a completely open space (like a large closest essentially) behind the screen for a speaker like the Golden Ear.

You could try your solution but it would be unpredictable so you should be prepared to revise the solution based on measuring how it works. It is a worthwhile experiment just not as flexible or easy.

I wanted to avoid the completely open space because I wanted to take advantage of the existing wall for baffle wall benefits.

Oh, and I've pulled the trigger on these

5x Genelec AIW26/ 6x RACK MOUNT RAM1 Monitor Speaker With Amplifier Module | eBay

Genelec AIW26/ RAM1 Monitor Speaker With Amplifier Module. Fully tested, working speaker with amplifier. No grill included. This includes the power cable and phoenix connector. Includes extra amp and both rack mounts.

www.ebay.com

When mounting them I plan to install the L and the R toed in at a 7-15 degree angle such that the outer edges of the speakers protrude from the wall a couple of inches. I will use foam to smooth out all edges and transitions.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Those look very cool. What’s the msrp? Have you seen cea2034 measurments of them?

We only have

I wanted to avoid the completely open space because I wanted to take advantage of the existing wall for baffle wall benefits.

Oh, and I've pulled the trigger on these

5x Genelec AIW26/ 6x RACK MOUNT RAM1 Monitor Speaker With Amplifier Module | eBay

Genelec AIW26/ RAM1 Monitor Speaker With Amplifier Module. Fully tested, working speaker with amplifier. No grill included. This includes the power cable and phoenix connector. Includes extra amp and both rack mounts.

www.ebay.com

When mounting them I plan to install the L and the R toed in at a 7-15 degree angle such that the outer edges of the speakers protrude from the wall a couple of inches. I will use foam to smooth out all edges and transitions.

Nice, you got 5 of them. Are they the a or b model?

 

[sumitagarwal]

We only have

Nice, you got 5 of them. Are they the a or b model?

They are the original A models. I compared the specs carefully and so far as I can tell the primary change to the B model is they changed the mounting mechanism to a more typical in-wall clamp whereas the the original A model relies on the grill frame to secure the speaker. Other than that there's a drop in woofer size from 7" to 6.5". Tweeters and waveguides seem to be the same, and both the A and the B versions use the exact same RAM1 amp. All other specs (frequency response, sensitivity, etc) are all identical between both models.

With the purchase I actually got a 6th amp, and so I'll find myself a 6th speaker as well.

The model might be a bit dated at this point, but a dated Genelec in-wall is probably better than a current model of in-wall by almost any other company within a reasonable price range? Again, the JBL SCL's are attractive but the lower cost ones are not enclosed which creates some compromise and I worry about installation inconsistency. Plus the Genelec bi-amp is probably better than my Marantz SR6012?