Screen wall speaker compromise options (toe in, enclosure volume, etc)

[NiagaraPete]

They are the original A models. I compared the specs carefully and so far as I can tell the primary change to the B model is they changed the mounting mechanism to a more typical in-wall clamp whereas the the original A model relies on the grill frame to secure the speaker. Other than that there's a drop in woofer size from 7" to 6.5". Tweeters and waveguides seem to be the same, and both the A and the B versions use the exact same RAM1 amp. All other specs (frequency response, sensitivity, etc) are all identical between both models.

With the purchase I actually got a 6th amp, and so I'll find myself a 6th speaker as well.

The model might be a bit dated at this point, but a dated Genelec in-wall is probably better than a current model of in-wall by almost any other company within a reasonable price range? Again, the JBL SCL's are attractive but the lower cost ones are not enclosed which creates some compromise and I worry about installation inconsistency. Plus the Genelec bi-amp is probably better than my Marantz SR6012?

Hey, I'll take credit for suggesting them and now I'm jealous.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Hey, I'll take credit for suggesting them and now I'm jealous.

Credit where credit is due! I've been spending months looking at in-wall speakers and these never hit my radar. Was knocking my head around trying to find high end enclosed speakers that weren't multi-thousand per speaker (SCL-1/2/3/4, Grimani, Focal, M&K, a few others, Focal). Monitor Audio has some promising designs but iffy and untested. QSC cinema speakers were also appealing but probably overkill in terms of output, likely less refined performance, and even the smallest would be large enough that I would have to break open the wall between the pantry and the tool closet. It seemed clear that JBL and other high-end companies really thought sealed is better if possible and if there's enough space in the wall.

At this price, this pedigree, and with dedicated bi-amps it was hard to say no. Worst-case scenario these will make for *killer* alternatives to Sonos speakers for living room, dining room, etc.

The price was some hard bargaining... they had the speakers listed for $1,000 each, so that would be $5,500 for all five plus the extra amp and rack mounts.

Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[sumitagarwal]

Now I gotta pick out sub(s).

Off-hand I feel myself looking at the 2x Rythmik L12 (300W each) placed in between the L/R and the Center, or the Monolith 13in THX 2000W placed directly under the Center.

I'll likely later add another sub in the second row riser or another wall, but for now focusing on the front wall while I've got it being worked on.

 

[nathan]

What is the complete cubic footage of the space, including those storage areas, boiler and laundry, staircase, etc, that are not closed off by solid doors?

That will help drive your subwoofer selection.

Looks like almost 5000 cubic feet, assuming an 8' ceiling.

Using the Audioholics sizing guide, that places you at the top end of "large" when it comes to room size: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

In the Rythmik lineup, you should probably be looking at something like a pair of FVX15.

 

[sumitagarwal]

What is the complete cubic footage of the space, including those storage areas, boiler and laundry, staircase, etc, that are not closed off by solid doors?

That will help drive your subwoofer selection.

Looks like almost 5000 cubic feet, assuming an 8' ceiling.

Using the Audioholics sizing guide, that places you at the top end of "large" when it comes to room size: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size

In the Rythmik lineup, you should probably be looking at something like a pair of FVX15.

Hrm, I need to go through the calculators. The ceiling is unfortunately only 7' high. I may start off a little undersized on the front subwoofers with the expectation of adding more to other walls later.

More urgent is figuring out the fine details of the speaker installation and toe-in! Attached are through rough mock-ups of having wall edges parallel to the screen, wall edges continuing the 15 degree tilt of the speaker/mount/wall, and wall edges that are curved (my reading indicates that curves are beneficial in baffle design).

Nathan and Pete, thank you again for your kind contributions to my project!

The blue represents the Elite Screens Aeon. Apparently the frame is only half an inch thick and one inch deep? I expect that the screen frame will have some minor diffraction effect on the speakers, but I want the speakers as wide as possible to hit that 45 degree angle between L and R.

 

[Dal1as]

Just a word of caution. You are going to lose input with a center wall application like that and a single 12 in that size room will struggle. I would think your sub route through more. 2 15s or more are needed for that space.

 

[nathan]

The toe in looks fine but I would contact Genelec and see what they recommend. I would not be surprised if they say to NOT toe them in like that and that it will do more harm than good, or not be necessary.

Dal1as is right about the subwoofer choices. This is a large space. Locking yourself into a bunch of 12 inch drivers is not ideal..... and mixing and matching subs is no fun when it comes to calibration. I would start with your end game subs. Get two, and add when money permits, if desired.

 

[NiagaraPete]

The toe in looks fine but I would contact Genelec and see what they recommend. I would not be surprised if they say to NOT toe them in like that and that it will do more harm than good, or not be necessary.

It won't hurt asking. Genelec are very responsive.

 

[sumitagarwal]

It won't hurt asking. Genelec are very responsive.
View attachment 233988

Thanks, what do you think is the best way to contact them? I figure email or some sort of method where I can share visuals would be best for clarity

 

[Dal1as]

Great speakers and setup won't matter if you skimp on subs and bass management. It's a critical part of the system that many overlook and then never know what they are missing. The minute you hear such a theater you'll know what I am talking about.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Thanks, what do you think is the best way to contact them? I figure email or some sort of method where I can share visuals would be best for clarity

I've always used email https://www.genelec.com/contact-information

But they also have a support portal.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Here's what I'm thinking of with regard to subwoofers. Two L12's in front and then I've marked other spots that are potential future locations. Of the future locations my preference would probably be the one next to the fuse box cabinet and the one under the back left of the riser

I have also sent a message to Genelec =)

 

[sumitagarwal]

Holy hell, if any of you folks haven't watched the Grimani videos on AVPro Edge I strongly recommend you check them out! Learn more from a couple of hours watching that than days reading through AVSForum!

In the later part of the second video he walks through some specific projects and solutions. This one in particular is somewhat similar to mine and from what I understand he simply made these baffle wings out of foam and not hard wall. Seems like a pretty simple solution!

 

[sumitagarwal]

So now I'm looking at Genelec and Neumann charts and I find myself wondering: do I need bigger more powerful speakers? Maybe these charts aren't accounting for subwoofer reinforcement.

The AIW26 is rated for 110 dB SPL at 1m. Which is higher than most of the non-in-wall 2-way Genelecs!

 

[nathan]

Holy hell, if any of you folks haven't watched the Grimani videos on AVPro Edge I strongly recommend you check them out! Learn more from a couple of hours watching that than days reading through AVSForum!

In the later part of the second video he walks through some specific projects and solutions. This one in particular is somewhat similar to mine and from what I understand he simply made these baffle wings out of foam and not hard wall. Seems like a pretty simple solution!

Different speakers react differently to different setups. Ask Genelec.

 

[NiagaraPete]

So now I'm looking at Genelec and Neumann charts and I find myself wondering: do I need bigger more powerful speakers? Maybe these charts aren't accounting for subwoofer reinforcement.

The AIW26 is rated for 110 dB SPL at 1m. Which is higher than most of the non-in-wall 2-way Genelecs!

View attachment 234022View attachment 234023

It's a bit late for second guessing. Remember you have 6 of them plus subs I think you'll be good.

 

[nathan]

So now I'm looking at Genelec and Neumann charts and I find myself wondering: do I need bigger more powerful speakers? Maybe these charts aren't accounting for subwoofer reinforcement.

The AIW26 is rated for 110 dB SPL at 1m. Which is higher than most of the non-in-wall 2-way Genelecs!

View attachment 234022View attachment 234023

No. You need bigger more powerful subs.

And with regard to where they are placed: use measurments of their response in the room, not what looks convenient.

 

[NiagaraPete]

And with regard to where they are placed: use measurments of their response in the room, not what looks convenient.

I agree but we have families and wives and must live with real life room situations.

 

[sumitagarwal]

I agree but we have families and wives and must live with real life room situations.

It's a big house. I have final say on anything for the theater and my office, my wife has final say on anything for our bedroom or her office, and we compromise on everything else.

In terms of more power: glad to hear it seems like my main speakers are probably sufficient power and may only need more sub reinforcement. Any thoughts on the options and locations I sketched out?

I definitely want clean, tight and accurate bass and will prefer to add more small sealed subs versus fewer larger subs if that helps. I hope to use my center front seat for music listening and reading, but who knows if I actually will end up doing that in real life.

 

[NiagaraPete]

It's a big house. I have final say on anything for the theater and my office, my wife has final say on anything for our bedroom or her office, and we compromise on everything else.

In terms of more power: glad to hear it seems like my main speakers are probably sufficient power and may only need more sub reinforcement. Any thoughts on the options and locations I sketched out?

I definitely want clean, tight and accurate bass and will prefer to add more small sealed subs versus fewer larger subs if that helps. I hope to use my center front seat for music listening and reading, but who knows if I actually will end up doing that in real life.

Sounds like my place, except we share the living room. Meh she wins most of the time.

The subs will be the game changer for you (I think) but others can advise better. Room measurements will definitely be very important.