Integrated stereo amplifier with bass-management?

[sarumbear]

Checking the ELAC German (elac.de) site it seems it has been replaced with a newer product with a few changes, I found this quick comparison between the two, not sure if it meets your needs as comprehensively anymore. On the other hand perhaps you can pick up the original at a bargain price?

Home Theater Amplifiers

Your source for Home Theater Amplifiers from top brands like Yamaha, AudioSource, Marantz and Benchmark. Go to B&H for amazing prices and service.

www.bhphotovideo.com

As I keep telling, I am compiling a list, not looking something to buy. If the product is no longer at the manufacturers website it is safe to assume it is no longer available. Don’t you agree?

 

[posvibes]

As I keep telling, I am compiling a list, not looking something to buy. If the product is no longer at the manufacturers website it is safe to assume it is no longer available. Don’t you agree?

1.Well it is obviously available as there is product still for sale, so ahh no, I don't agree
2. The product as advertised for sale on Amazon makes the point that the product is still supported. I would go so far as to say that ELAC will have it in its supported product program for a number of years, but I may be wrong.
3. My comment on the price for a run out product was to indicate that it might be had for a price well under the $1000.00 cap you have imposed.
4. And I provided you with an alternative with the rider being I was not sure if it still fulfilled all of most, or any of your requirements.
5. You're welcome!

 

[sarumbear]

1.Well it is obviously available as there is product still for sale, so ahh no, I don't agree
2.The product as advertised for sale on Amazon makes the point that the product is still supported.

Copied from the specification on post #1.

9. Available to the UK (i.e. on sale in the UK as new.)

May I ask where do you see that product as available to the UK and that it is supported?

Amazon.co.uk : EA101EQ-G

 

[posvibes]

Copied from the specification on post #1.


May I ask where do you see that product as available to the UK and that it is supported?

Amazon.co.uk : EA101EQ-G

Oh well, don't add it to your list.

 

[damirj79]

For me personally this topic is quite interesting and I am in search of the similar amplifier by myself also. In addition to the OPs specs I would also prefer google cast / chromecast option, HDMI ARC and CEC, if possible also some sort of room EQ, but I don't really care about the LP filters for subwoofer line out. Considering this I can not find any available amplifiers, except Arcam SA30 which is like 3 times of the price in plan and bunch of AV receivers and if I want google cast option, Pioneer is the only available choice or am I missing others? I can remove HDMI ARC and CEC, also chromecast and it still gives me 0 search results.

 

[djtetei]

While everyone here may have an opinion for and against such an amplifier, why not take the specifications list and put it up for debate to all equipment manufacturers and invite them to send their own offers or provide direct feedback on the matter?
Personally, I would like to know what would be their stand on this and if they have the guts to talk about it openly.

 

[Slyman]

Its very frustrating to me that this problem hasen't been taking care of by the industry. I mean how hard is it to have a button when pressed that high-passes the satellites and lo-passes the subwoofer... Could almost be a global 80hz XO button?

Most bookshelfs go down to 50 hz terroritory anyway, and having a sub roll in at 40-50 hz is just IMO not a good way to use a sub to compensate for weaker bass satellites.

Take any 2-channel integrated receiver that has ever had an sub or pre-out and add this function... Would it be that difficult?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Its very frustrating to me that this problem hasen't been taking care of by the industry. I mean how hard is it to have a button when pressed that high-passes the satellites and lo-passes the subwoofer... Could almost be a global 80hz XO button?

Most bookshelfs go down to 50 hz terroritory anyway, and having a sub roll in at 40-50 hz is just IMO not a good way to use a sub to compensate for weaker bass satellites.

Take any 2-channel integrated receiver that has ever had an sub or pre-out and add this function... Would it be that difficult?

Well it's not entirely true that it hasn't, since there are a number of products that support this?

 

[Slyman]

Well it's not entirely true that it hasn't, since there are a number of products that support this?

Any examples that are not big AVRs or +1000usd? It is surprisingly uncommon.

 

[KMO]

I think the issue is it's one of those slightly oxymoronic feature sets - "bass management for people who are still using 2 speakers".

The majority of people who are into audio enough to have a subwoofer and care about bass management also know why 2 speakers doesn't cut it. They're not in the 2-channel market.

I just don't think the demand is there for retrofitting bass management into legacy non-multichannel devices.

I mean, sure, I can understand that in theory if I had 2 speakers, I'd want bass management, but I just can't conceive of getting a subwoofer before actually sorting out the lack of speakers.

It's good that some manufacturers care enough to provide it even in 2-channel, in the higher-end, but it's never going to be that widespread. The cheap mass-market solution is the 5.1 AVR, not a boutique legacy 2-channel device.

 

[Slyman]

I think the issue is it's one of those slightly oxymoronic feature sets - "bass management for people who are still using 2 speakers".

The majority of people who are into audio enough to have a subwoofer and care about bass management also know why 2 speakers doesn't cut it. They're not in the 2-channel market.

I just don't think the demand is there for retrofitting bass management into legacy non-multichannel devices.

I mean, sure, I can understand that in theory if I had 2 speakers, I'd want bass management, but I just can't conceive of getting a subwoofer before actually sorting out the lack of speakers.

It's good that some manufacturers care enough to provide it even in 2-channel, in the higher-end, but it's never going to be that widespread. The cheap mass-market solution is the 5.1 AVR, not a boutique legacy 2-channel device.

I see your point but disagree with your numbers. A lot of people drive 2.1 systems and has the exact same problem as i have. Numerous of reddit posts and others forums too.

Not all people want 5.1 home theater setups. In fact many just want a stereo speaker system with a subwoofer for the deep bass.

And who said anything about legacy and boutique? Just add a XO in the normal receivers normal people use for their stereos.

And also what do you mean by "2 speakers doesn't cut it. They're not in the 2-channel market."? Why would you ever need to go beyond 2.2 setups unless you want surround sound?

 

[KMO]

I agree that there are quite a lot of people who want 2.1 audio only.

But are there enough to make special dedicated 2.1 audio-only systems for them, that are cost-effective, compared to a 5.1 A/V system?

Just as there aren't a load of cheap 1-channel amplifiers out there in the mass market, because everyone wants at least 2-channel. (1-channel amplifiers exist, but they're boutique, not cheap.)

2.1 is kind of in the same situation. Sure, you can bemoan that by buying an AVR you're "wasting money" on bits you're not using that could have gone into, say, better quality amps/DACs for the 2 channels. Except that's more than offset by the mass-production price gain of sharing the gear with the multichannel crowd. (Mono 1-speaker people are also best off buying a 2-channel system...).

The two mass markets are "5-or-more-channel+sub" (mostly home cinema) and "only-2-speakers" (mostly music). Everyone else just has to go along with it.

(And they're not even mass-market anyway, are they? There's probably more for silly little USB speakers and headphones... They're the two "hi-fi" mass markets, at least)

 

[Slyman]

I agree that there are quite a lot of people who want 2.1 audio only.

But are there enough to make special dedicated 2.1 audio-only systems for them, that are cost-effective, compared to a 5.1 A/V system?

Just as there aren't a load of cheap 1-channel amplifiers out there in the mass market, because everyone wants at least 2-channel. (1-channel amplifiers exist, but they're boutique, not cheap.)

2.1 is kind of in the same situation. Sure, you can bemoan that by buying an AVR you're "wasting money" on bits you're not using that could have gone into, say, better quality amps/DACs for the 2 channels. Except that's more than offset by the mass-production price gain of sharing the gear with the multichannel crowd. (Mono 1-speaker people are also best off buying a 2-channel system...).

Do you assume that the population who want cheap 1-channel amps are equal to people who want to add a subwoofer to their normal audio system? Thats most likely two very different sized populations.

if you by "special dedicated 2.1 audio-only systems" mean simply adding a 80hz XO option to the already existing in/outs that all integrated stereo amplifiers have then i think you're pushing the semantics. It's in no way 2.1 audio only. It simply means should be able to on/off a high-pass filter to the HL outs.

there's many reasons why you wouldn't want an AVR. They're super large and can't fit on a normal bookshelf, they take alot of power (which is expensive nowadays), and are quite expensive unless you buy the second hand market which is in turn abundant. However second-hand they are in no way are up-to-date and many are before HDMI connection to be able to even engage in the settings where you can do bass management.

2.1 systems are very common. Why would you negligible that population? At the same time you reversely blow up adding a HPF or XO option would suddenly make a normal receiver "legacy" or "special dedicated only". Its a reasonable and common demand bro. I think NAD should have made this a standard 10-15 years ago when sub-out/pre-outs became a regular in normal receivers.

 

[djtetei]

I understand the frustration of people who like or want to use "integrated" equipments.
Personally I'm not a fan of integrated "all in one" audio video equipments and I never used it because I always prefer separate components able to do their specific jobs very well and keep the upgrade option open at any time.
Furthermore, I prefer to use very good professional equipment in order to have full control over the gain stage, ability to always use balanced signal paths and high power amplifiers, all driven smoothly by a high quality speaker management system with adjustable crossovers. This approach allows me to work with any speakers and blend them nicely with one another.

 

[KMO]

Yeah, I think what we're increasingly seeing is people like you taking both room correction and bass crossover into their own hands with separate DSP.

DSP as one of the "separates" makes sense to me.

Just bopping a fixed 80Hz analogue crossover into a 2-channel amp seems, I dunno, a bit half-hearted?

So that's another of those market forks where even 2-channel people are moving on to this DSP domain - either amp integrated or separate.

So again, how much market remains for non-DSP basic crossover integrated in a separate 2-channel amp?

I think general DSP will become cheaper and more ubiquitous in the 2-channel space, and DSP-based amps will have sub capability - I think that's more likely than analogue crossover. Analogue purists will remain, but most of them will be no-subwoofer purists too...

 

[djtetei]

So again, how much market remains for non-DSP basic crossover integrated in a separate 2-channel amp?

You can use a good analog crossover as long as you find a good high quality adjustable one.
As for the use of DSP, I try to avoid using it unless necessary and when it is necessary I always use one capable of processing the sound at the highest samplerate.
My problem with the AVRs avaible today in the consumer market is the fact that they include the amplification stage, which is not desirable and also a limiting factor for the customers.
An AVR, in my opinion should be more like a multichannel signal procesor and decoder with as many pre outputs as necessary, pet design. If I would use an AVR, I would like it to have all the capabilities necessary in order to decode the multichannel sound formats and send it out to its pre outputs, where the user can choose how many or how powerful amplifiers or speakers to use.

 

[Slyman]

Yeah, I think what we're increasingly seeing is people like you taking both room correction and bass crossover into their own hands with separate DSP.

DSP as one of the "separates" makes sense to me.

Just bopping a fixed 80Hz analogue crossover into a 2-channel amp seems, I dunno, a bit half-hearted?

So that's another of those market forks where even 2-channel people are moving on to this DSP domain - either amp integrated or separate.

So again, how much market remains for non-DSP basic crossover integrated in a separate 2-channel amp?

I think general DSP will become cheaper and more ubiquitous in the 2-channel space, and DSP-based amps will have sub capability - I think that's more likely than analogue crossover. Analogue purists will remain, but most of them will be no-subwoofer purists too...

True. Perhaps most receives in the near future will have a digital APP belonging to the brand where u can DSP, EQ, bass manage etc.

This might be a bit off topic though, but i was thinking when you're DSP'ing in a living room - where you walk around, sit at the sofa, at the dinner table. exercise on the floor etc... Isn't DSP mostly if you have a fixed listening position though? I know peaks changes when you move around the room (not sure about nulls) and bass becomes very different according to position.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Any examples that are not big AVRs or +1000usd? It is surprisingly uncommon.

Stereo amplifiers / preamplifiers with proper support for subwoofers

If you have a surround receiver, connecting a subwoofer is easy. In a 2-channel setup, it's often not. High-end audiophiles are a conservative crowd. Unfortunately, that means they are sceptical to "new" ideas like subwoofers and DSP / room correction - despite the fact that both can genuinely...

www.sigbergaudio.no

 

[doug s.]

i mentioned this earlier in this thread - if you insist on a "one box solution", you're just being obstinate, imo, and you're cutting off your nose to spite your face, as the cliché goes. there's plenty of high quality inexpensive smaller amps, preamps, integrated amps with pre-outs/main-ins, and, yes - active outboard x-overs - that will give you high quality signals for however you want to configure a compact 2-channel audio system - summed mono sub, or stereo subs. you can used powered subs; just set their built-in x-over point at the highest setting, and your outboard x-over point below that. why all the fuss?

doug s.

 

[Head_Unit]

Its very frustrating to me that this problem hasen't been taking care of by the industry. I mean how hard is it...Most bookshelfs go down to 50 hz terroritory anyway...

It's just stupid, stupid stupid stupid. STUPID. How many satellite speakers out there distort if you really crank the bass? 6.264 billion? And are ported well above say 40 Hz so just unload below that, woofers uselessly flapping around? So you get innocent/naive folks adding a sub and yeah there's more bass but there's still distortion. When the [insert various product here, PS Audio Sprout 100 I'm thinking of YOU in particular] came out I thought "oh cool!" until I learned there was no highpass filtering possible...in a product seemingly targeted towards smaller systems...with a "subwoofer" output yet!

As for outboard stuff as suggested by @djtetei and @KMO and likely others, well
- I believe there are a lot of customers that don't understand this stuff and/or just don't want to mess with it and/or don't want more boxes (cuz if you get something like the Sprout you may be short on space or just don't want more clutter)
- Even if you did very few of these products have any way at all to highpass, since there are no inputs to the power amp section.

If the brands feel they are targeting two-channel no-sub no-DSP purists that's one thing. But putting a "sub" out with no highpass just bugs the living hell out of me (if you hadn't noticed already )