Stereophile's snide editorial on ASR and Amir

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, what are the direct sales rules for Stereophioe?

I cannot state them officially without effort but it has to do with returns, warranties and support. I suggest you query the Editor.

 

[krabapple]

Settle down.

It's a Chinatown ref. re: "signature subjectivist assertions', it means 'what else do you expect from Stereophile? It's what always happens there'

That's something I should 'settle down' from?

 

[krabapple]

You can buy into it if you like but I don't put much weight on mission statements (here, there or anywhere).

I'm not even sure which 'mission statement' you're referring to. ASR's 'staff' written content puts a solid focus on measurements ('signal'). Stereophile's doesn't. That's a fact.

 

[tmtomh]

It's a Chinatown ref. re: "signature subjectivist assertions', it means 'what else do you expect from Stereophile? It's what always happens there'

That's something I should 'settle down' from?

I got the reference.

 

[MattHooper]

It's a Chinatown ref. re: "signature subjectivist assertions', it means 'what else do you expect from Stereophile? It's what always happens there'

That's something I should 'settle down' from?

Good use of a movie reference, though! *thumbs up*

 

[Axo1989]

I'm not even sure which 'mission statement' you're referring to. ...

As I said, anyone's.

... ASR's 'staff' written content puts a solid focus on measurements ('signal'). ...

If that was the only content, sure.

... Stereophile's doesn't. That's a fact.

Yet they've provided solid measurements for years.

 

[krabapple]

As I said, anyone's.

uh huh. So you agree with the gist of my post:

"I'm not even sure which 'mission statement' you're referring to. ASR's 'staff' written content puts a solid focus on measurements ('signal'). Stereophile's doesn't. That's a fact."

 

[Axo1989]

uh huh. So you agree with the gist of my post:

"I'm not even sure which 'mission statement' you're referring to. ASR's 'staff' written content puts a solid focus on measurements ('signal'). Stereophile's doesn't. That's a fact."

I was finishing my post so you would have missed it, but obviously not.

 

[Audiofire]

No. It was only an excuse. The real reason is that their solid state development and industry has always been so poor and underdeveloped that they had no other option. The West has been overestimating Soviet power grossly.

This:

"Cow In A Car" by Meanwhile in Russia​

 

[prerich]

Did anyone happen to read the comments? There are only two so Stereophile certainly meant it as a snipe against Amir since they posted only one other comment other than this one I will quote here for you all.

"is that I should go out and buy an AP analyzer (and maybe a Klippel NFS?) and then proceed to measure a bunch of stuff, make a forum, provide 1/4 screen grabs of the AP's screen for "THUH DATA", criticize the inventors and makers of any products that "fail my standards", harass/mock/ban anyone who disagrees, Monday-morning-quarterback established product engineers and designers in the industry as often as possible (ESPECIALLY when they cost more than ChiFi), and then devise some type of iconography with which I could associate my rating system. Mayhaps a Panther???.....

I joke, I kid.


Another great article, Jim. Excited to see what Bruno and the gang create next."


Only a spineless person will write "I joke, I kid" after what was written in order to give himself an out away from admitting his real feelings out there for the whole world to read.


The measurement equipment used by Amir gives us objective data plain and simple. The "think tank' over at stereophile isn't there to help consumers, it's there to make profits and objective data in today's technologically advanced world doesn't help their cause since it's quite inexpensive and easy to obtain electronics that perform well. We have been able to achieve good performance in audio equipment since at least the 1950's.

I think what makes them so scared of ASR is it organizes test data from top notch equipment where no products can hide behind a standard subjective reviewer where the consumer puts his faith in the latter's honesty. The subjective reviews are impossible to organize into a useful tool for consumers to use as a buying guide without bias. The "screen grabs" from the AP or Klippel tell a story that isn't biased, it's objective and actually useful if you know how to interpret the data. This takes the power away from them over at Stereophile where the golden ears get to decide what's a great product and what's not, it renders them obsolete unless your into reading fiction.

True...very true. However, in the case of speakers....it seems that speakers with the highest preference scores...happen to be very costly to the "average Joe". Its almost affirming that you get what you pay for. There are also areas to consider when you view the data...running any speaker system with a preference score over 6 lands you firmly in the high-end with the exception of possibly 2 or 3 models. If you think about Home theater....that takes you back again because many of those speakers are active models. I can go on and on.
The truth is that there's a place for ASR (objectivity) and Stereophile (subjectivity) and for all those who are in-between. I recently watched a video from Gene over at Audioholics concerning eq measurements, he had Matt and Don with him. When all was said and done - they all came to a conclusion....as long as you like it - nothing else matters. I rarely hear anyone mention the constantly changing dynamic that many of us never measure ... our own hearing. Equipment can measure great all day long but if my ears are faulty, either something must be done to correct my hearing or, I must change the character of the music to what I find acceptable and or pleasing...no? There's also the listening paradigm that each of us have grown up with - of what we considered good sound, only to have that paradigm smashed - some by hearing a scientifically better measuring system, or some by hearing a system that resonated with their psyche.
I've bought pieces of gear due to the input of ASR such as the Gustard x-16 but had to contain myself from purchasing the Topping D90SE or the Gustard x-18 just for 2db of SINAD. I also have gear that's not on ASR's recommended list - such as the Marantz AV7706 (I know the 7705 was sent to you twice), but lets just think that the 7706 is the same as the 05 except for 8k video. I'm happy with it as my prepro, as I can't afford a Trinnov or Storm, and I don't want an AV receiver for that job any longer.
Do I think Stereophile took a glancing blow at ASR - possibly, do I think they took a blow at the readers....most definitely. What happened in that article though is this...Stereophile threw a hook out with bait, and all types of fish began to bite. Sometimes negative press can be positive....that's how I landed over here....and became a regular reader....learned a few things as well.

 

[antcollinet]

Probably wasn't Nichicon or Nippon Chemi-Con, but even the modern ones from those brands have a rated lifetime of 15 years.

Electrolytic capacitor lifetime is highly dependant on operating temperature. If I remember correctly from a former life, lifetime would typically halve for each 10C increase in temperature.

Operating temperature is highly dependent on ripple current - as well as the air temperture in the vicinity of the cap.

 

[Timcognito]

The truth is that there's a place for ASR (objectivity) and Stereophile (subjectivity) and for all those who are in-between. I recently watched a video from Gene over at Audioholics concerning eq measurements, he had Matt and Don with him. When all was said and done - they all came to a conclusion....as long as you like it

They always like it especially if it costs a lot. Subjectively they need to tell us to run away from products because that are bad but at Stereophile and Absolute Sound they are beholden to advertisers and will not bite the hand that feeds them. Subjectively some percentage of what they review is sub-par and there is no way to screen it in advance of objective or subjective review.

 

[sergeauckland]

Electrolytic capacitor lifetime is highly dependant on operating temperature. If I remember correctly from a former life, lifetime would typically halve for each 10C increase in temperature.

Operating temperature is highly dependent on ripple current - as well as the air temperture in the vicinity of the cap.

Yes, although I see it as the lifetime doubling for every 10° decrease in temperature

A typical commercial grade capacitor will be rated at, say 8000 hours at 85°.
Provided the voltage it's used at is below its rated voltage (say 20% below) and with a typical ambient temperature of 22°, which I expect means that the internal temperature of the capacitor won't exceed 35°, then the lifetime should be around 264,000 hours.

That's 30.13 years at 24h/day 365 days a year, but for domestic equipment used, perhaps, for 2 hours a day every day, say 750 hours a year, then the lifetime should be around 352 years!!!! That's why in most case I think recapping amplifiers after just 10 years is a nonsense. Maybe, just maybe, after 30 years, but generally, only if there's signs of the capacitors leaking, or a known drop in performance.

S

 

[egellings]

I recapped a Yamaha preamplifier and kept the old caps. I measured them later and out of the 2 dozen or so caps, only one was out of spec--not dead, just low in capacitance. Preamp worked well before the recapping, and it played just as well after recapping.

 

[antcollinet]

Yes, although I see it as the lifetime doubling for every 10° decrease in temperature

A typical commercial grade capacitor will be rated at, say 8000 hours at 85°.
Provided the voltage it's used at is below its rated voltage (say 20% below) and with a typical ambient temperature of 22°, which I expect means that the internal temperature of the capacitor won't exceed 35°, then the lifetime should be around 264,000 hours.

That's 30.13 years at 24h/day 365 days a year, but for domestic equipment used, perhaps, for 2 hours a day every day, say 750 hours a year, then the lifetime should be around 352 years!!!! That's why in most case I think recapping amplifiers after just 10 years is a nonsense. Maybe, just maybe, after 30 years, but generally, only if there's signs of the capacitors leaking, or a known drop in performance.

S

That is about a million miles from my experience.

First ambient refers to the ambient around the capacitor - not the device it is in. In a power device such as an amp, the internal ambient of the (eg) amplifeer is likely to be anything up to 40C - or significanlty more on a hot day such as we had in UK this year. Capacitor voltage is rarely relevant for heating. Ripple current is - and in power applications, ripple current is often close to rated. You can expect the internal temperature of the cap (we ordered specially made capacitors with internal PTC devices so we could check this) approach the rated 85C. There is always an argument about whether it is capacitor case temperature or internal temperature that should be used. We erred on the safe side, and used internal temperature. Our capacitor lifetime calculations were always less than 5 years. Sometimes as low as 10,000 hours.

 

[Audiofire]

Operating temperature is highly dependent on ripple current - as well as the air temperture in the vicinity of the cap.

The 15 year estimate is about deterioration of the end seal.

That's 30.13 years at 24h/day 365 days a year, but for domestic equipment used, perhaps, for 2 hours a day every day, say 750 hours a year, then the lifetime should be around 352 years!!!! That's why in most case I think recapping amplifiers after just 10 years is a nonsense. Maybe, just maybe, after 30 years, but generally, only if there's signs of the capacitors leaking, or a known drop in performance.

Likewise, the service life is the full life time of the capacitor. Not just when it is used. The 30 year estimate is therefore the right one, certainly not 352 years for the electrolyte.

I recapped a Yamaha preamplifier and kept the old caps. I measured them later and out of the 2 dozen or so caps, only one was out of spec--not dead, just low in capacitance. Preamp worked well before the recapping, and it played just as well after recapping.

The dielectric in electrolytic capacitors is an oxide layer that deteriorates as well, if no electric charge is applied for around 2 years. Reforming this oxide layer is necessary for ensuring meaningful measurements.

The price of old analog preamps and amps means they are still rather worthwhile, and I have gathered reliable references and written a detailed overview of them here:

Servicing Safety and Replacement of Electrolytic Capacitors

Health Hazards "The limited energy in capacitors (E = (1/2) C V²) restricts the duration of the shock, even if there are no circuit breakers to trip. The shock current will be limited by the body resistance, and the duration of the shock will be characterized by the time constant (τ = R C)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Lupin]

Recently there seems to be a coordinated and prepared attack on objectivity and measurement of equipment by the more subjective hive mind reviewer whether they be print, online, video, the wording/particular phrases used appear to read almost identically so I guess the jungle drums are rumbling and they feel threatened for whatever reason.

I think the reason is obvious.

Hearing.. or rather claiming to be able to hear a difference between component A and B is literally their livelihood for a lot of audiophiles in the subjective camp.
The moment they admit they can't hear a difference is the moment they start losing subscribers and followers.
So subjectivists hearing a difference can not only be classified as "misguided" but also heavily biased by the fact their income depends on it.... so how trustworthy are they really..?

 

[mhardy6647]

Yes, although I see it as the lifetime doubling for every 10° decrease in temperature

Nice
The chemical kineticists in the audience are right there with you!

 

[mhardy6647]

I recapped a Yamaha preamplifier and kept the old caps. I measured them later and out of the 2 dozen or so caps, only one was out of spec--not dead, just low in capacitance. Preamp worked well before the recapping, and it played just as well after recapping.

... and how was the DCR of all of those caps relative to new ones?
Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't -- depending upon why the capacitor is in the circuit.

Oh, just to be clear, I am no fan of shotgunning capacitor changes in vintage hardware (a la the quintessential AK recapper types). Seems silly to me, too. And the tolerance on electrolytics (especially 40 to 50 years ago, and especially fairly large value electrolytics as found in power supplies) was quite broad.
In resonant circuits, the exact values for a capacitor tend to be more important, methinks.

 

[egellings]

DCR is critical in applications where ripple or other AC currents are significant, as an example, switch-mode power supply in and out bypassing caps. In small signal analog circuits applications, such as coupling caps, where surrounding circuit resistances are huge compared with the fraction of an ohm or so DCR of the cap, the DCR is completely insignificant and can be ignored. The only time to become concerned about DCR is if it is abnormally high and out of spec for the cap. That could indicate a problem with the cap.