Computer Audiophiles Are Anti-Computer

[Thomas savage]

Yes, Tim, I know you want to believe that Dallas is "telling it like it is" - as I said this self-help group helps to allay your insecurities & get validation from & give validation to, others in the group.

Your doing the same, project much

Your reassuring yourself by opposing what you see as a group of like minded 'wrong' individuals. You are using them to affirm yourself.

It's a counter rejection mechanism but don't worry there's always...,,

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes, Tim, I know you want to believe that Dallas is "telling it like it is" - as I said this self-help group helps to allay your insecurities & get validation from & give validation to, others in the group.

Yes. As your lack of ability to measure, coupled with your faith in the unmeasurable, allows you to continue to believe what you wish to believe. If you believed in what is verifiable, you'd be forced to purchase, and learn how to use some equipment to verify your "findings." You might even have to get educated in the field you've chosen to pursue. But all of the above is far too much work. Much more convenient to just believe, and make snide comments about those who long for more substance.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I can't say I always agree with Tim so won't comment on that other than to say to disagree with Tim is to be wrong, tim has not been wrong since 1976 despite the hand waving and erroneous claims of his ex wives.

Wives. You don't always agree with my flawless logic? Shocking.

Tim

 

[John Kenny]

I can't say I always agree with Tim so won't comment on that other than to say to disagree with Tim is to be wrong, tim has not been wrong since 1976 despite the hand waving and erroneous claims of his ex wife's.

Moving on,

All social arenas are on some level ' self help' , we are social animals and for a healthy mind we need regular interaction with others. It's common for like minded people to band together, the idea this trait is exclusive to our members is....,
View attachment 1862

To the contrary, our members seem to disagree a great deal but what binds them together is a shared mechanism of argument.

Rules of engagement If you like, of course if you feel more comfortable in a social group that has no such ideals, maybe this is not the place for you.

I don't think being right is the motivation for most of our membership either John, more accurate to say they enjoy to debate within a structure that allows the advancement of their knowledge.

That's the majority, though dare I say not exclusively so...

The deeper truth, Tom, is that most here seek solace in measurements as a reassurance that they are right in what they hear - hence the great distrust of anything that doesn't appear on a measurement. What I mean by insecurity is that they can't seem to live with the possibilities that there is something that their ears are telling them that measurements aren't showing. In fact they go so far as to have such a negative bias that they can no longer hear anything which measurements don't confirm is "real".

Can you show me one example of something heard but not yet measurable by those here?

 

[Thomas savage]

Yes. As your lack of ability to measure, coupled with your faith in the unmeasurable, allows you to continue to believe what you wish to believe. If you believed in what is verifiable, you'd be forced to purchase, and learn how to use some equipment to verify your "findings." You might even have to get educated in the field you've chosen to pursue. But all of the above is far too much work. Much more convenient to just believe, and make snide comments about those who long for more substance.

Tim

No Tim John longs for more substance too!

Substance ..,

Abuse

 

[John Kenny]

Yes. As your lack of ability to measure, coupled with your faith in the unmeasurable, allows you to continue to believe what you wish to believe. If you believed in what is verifiable, you'd be forced to purchase, and learn how to use some equipment to verify your "findings." You might even have to get educated in the field you've chosen to pursue. But all of the above is far too much work. Much more convenient to just believe, and make snide comments about those who long for more substance.

Tim

Yawn
That's what is the crux of the matter, Tim - I know that revealing these "subtle" issues in measurements will require creative thinking driven by a desire to get to the truth of the matter - both characteristics that are lacking on this forum, instead settling on mediocre stock measurements to reassure the inmates.

I have faith in what I hear, Tim & it has served me well.

Unfortunately, I neither have the time nor inclination to do these measurements myself but I & others would be willing to try to help anyone who genuinely wants to get to the truth & try to devise measurements which might reveal something of value

We have a perfect example of this earlier with BE's thread on Noise Floor Modulation - he resisted all help & suggestions, instead enforcing his will & control on the supposed "search for a measurement" to reveal noise floor mod. In fact what he was doing was trying to show that NFM (his version of it) was inaudible. And still he has not produced any results.

So, Tim, your claim of " those who are looking for actual audible differences" is far from what is actually the motivation of those here

 

[Thomas savage]

The deeper truth, Tom, is that most here seek solace in measurements as a reassurance that they are right in what they hear - hence the great distrust of anything that doesn't appear on a measurement. What I mean by insecurity is that they can't seem to live with the possibilities that there is something that their ears are telling them that measurements aren't showing. In fact they go so far as to have such a negative bias that they can no longer hear anything which measurements don't confirm is "real".

Can you show me one example of something heard but not yet measurable by those here?

Umm..,

Some may well not be able to cope with a high level of ignorance. They may well seek safety in knowing/understanding , they may well have a lust and a belief for and in knowladge as a force to eliminate by understanding and controlling variables and cause and effect.

That's one of the fundamental differences between humans and animals though John and it's the main contributor to scientific discovery along with our imagination.

yes our members are human! ( apart from me) any other ' accusations ' ?

 

[John Kenny]

No Tim John longs for more substance too!

Substance ..,
View attachment 1864
Abuse

Yes, Tom, I am looking for more substance, seriously - I know that in time measurements will be found that validate what is being heard in the area of computer audio& I'm pretty sure it will be found when more sensitive & sophisticated noise measurements are done

 

[Thomas savage]

I have seen ghosts but waiting for the advanced measuring equipment to prove my visions,

Uri geller has special super natural powers , it's not a trick. We just can't measure it. Though we tried back in the 70's.

Hey I chose all by equipment by ear but I am considerably more physiologically evolved than you lot.

 

[John Kenny]

Umm..,

Some may well not be able to cope with a high level of ignorance. They may well seek safety in knowing/understanding , they may well have a lust and a belief for and in knowladge as a force to eliminate by understanding and controlling variables and cause and effect.

That's one of the fundamental differences between humans and animals though John and it's the main contributor to scientific discovery along with our imagination.

yes our members are human! ( apart from me) any other ' accusations ' ?

One of the ways that knowledge advances & scientific discovery happens is by investigating anomalies to current measurements/understanding. One of the greatest barriers to this discovery is the dismissal of these anomalies with "it doesn't fucking matter"
Evaluating the shortcomings of your existing measurements & what is not revealed by them is part of the scientific mindset - can you show me where this has been addressed on this forum?
As I asked before can you show me some example of an audible difference which is not yet measurable that is accepted here?

 

[John Kenny]

I have seen ghosts but waiting for the advanced measuring equipment to prove my visions,

Uri geller has special super natural powers , it's not a trick. We just can't measure it. Though we tried back in the 70's.

Hey I chose all by equipment by ear but I am considerably more physiologically evolved than you lot.

Specious arguments

 

[Thomas savage]

John What I want to know is.. Are you having a good crack?

 

[John Kenny]

John What I want to know is.. Are you having a good crack?

Always! Don't you know the Irish are famous for having a bit of Craic (meaning fun in Irish, just in case you didn't know) - why else would I be posting here?

 

[Thomas savage]

One of the ways that knowledge advances & scientific discovery happens is by investigating anomalies to current measurements/understanding. One of the greatest barriers to this discovery is the dismissal of these anomalies with "it doesn't fucking matter"
Evaluating the shortcomings of your existing measurements & what is not revealed by them is part of the scientific mindset - can you show me where this has been addressed on this forum?
As I asked before can you show me some example of an audible difference which is not yet measurable that is accepted here?

Michael is not so deluded to believe he is pushing the boundaries of what's ' known' .
He is trying to get better sound in his house through well principled practice rather than audiophile fantasy, I think he tried that too though but you would have to ask him.

Stop quoting him! You misunderstood what he was communicating, all you are doing by repeatedly quoting him is undermining your own sentiment by building them on said lack of comprehension.

So far your whole argument is build on a fundamental lack of recognition to the nature of basic human needs and motivations, at least how universal they are ( yes that includes you).

Your accusations are entirely motivated by your own predisposition and have little to do with the real motivations
Of our members, at least the ones you have singled out.

 

[Thomas savage]

Always! Don't you know the Irish are famous for having a bit of Craic (meaning fun in Irish, just in case you didn't know) - why else would I be posting here?

Yea that's why I asked ! I just spelt it 'crack' for the reason it injects a double meaning.

If you just laid off these

for a while you would of realised that

 

[Thomas savage]

Specious arguments

Well I though I would reply in kind

 

[John Kenny]

Michael is not so deluded to believe he is pushing the boundaries of what's ' known' .
He is trying to get better sound in his house through well principled practice rather than audiophile fantasy, I think he tried that too though but you would have to ask him.

Sure & nobody is suggesting otherwise - as we all do, he is trying to improve his sound in the best way he sees fit. What I'm pointing out is his dismissal of other valid improvements.

Stop quoting him! You misunderstood what he was communicating, all you are doing by repeatedly quoting him is undermining your own sentiment by building them on said lack of comprehension.

Nope, I don't misunderstand what he said - your attempts to excuse it are part of the validation system I'm talking about

So far your whole argument is build on a fundamental lack of recognition to the nature of basic human needs and motivations, at least how universal they are ( yes that includes you).

I recognise the need everyone has for self-validation - didn't I just say that was what the members here are looking for? What I find interesting is the deep insecurity demonstrated.

Your accusations are entirely motivated by your own predisposition and have little to do with the real motivations
Of our members, at least the ones you have singled out.

that's your opinion & you're entitled to express it as I presume I'm entitled to express mine?

 

[Sal1950]

Can you show me one example of something heard but not yet measurable by those here?

Since none of the knuckle draggers here have seen fit to answer you John.
I find your bull shit to be one excellent example!

 

[John Kenny]

Since none of the knuckle draggers here have seen fit to answer you John.
I find your bull shit to be one excellent example!

And that would be a "no" then & no answers from the rest of the membership. So what we have is a forum where most will agree that measurements don't delimit what we hear & yet none can give an example of something they hear but they can't yet measure. I find that an interesting example of cognitive dissonance.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Evaluating the shortcomings of your existing measurements & what is not revealed by them is part of the scientific mindset - can you show me where this has been addressed on this forum?
As I asked before can you show me some example of an audible difference which is not yet measurable that is accepted here?

John - it is your hypothesis that the measurements taken here do not reveal what is audible. So, why do you place the necessity of proof of what you believe on others in this thread? I think you need to do more homework yourself in attempting to prove your belief. Why just sit back demanding that from others here who might have a different belief?

It is quite clear that you abhor measurements of any kind and consider them valueless. Fine, you are entitled to believe that. But, your weaving and bobbing, your debating society style, your twisting of others words and intent is quite shallow in attempting to defend your belief.

And, what are your proofs, exactly, for the audibility of differences that are not in the measurements? There are far more objective methods for that than your own anecdotal testimonials. You criticize others for not being more scientific when you are not the least bit scientific yourself in supporting your own beliefs,