PS Audio FR30 speakers

[Cars-N-Cans]

I'll ask you a rhetorical question: What's the cash flow difference for PS Audio between Chris Brunhaver doing a few days extra testing and PS Audio buying K NFS to do that testing? Answer - $100,000. If that was my business, and I'd never sold a speaker and with no certainty than I ever would, I'd make the same decision. Bear in mind they've recently scrapped a few other product ideas.

As a design engineer who as had to do complex design iteration within tight constraints, the difference isn't 100k. It's potentially the difference between PS Audio having a hugely successful line of speakers, and the FR30 plowing into the ground commercially and leaving a very costly skidmark on PS Audio's finances and reputation. One thing I can see from the outside is that the FR30 is conceptually solid, but in dire need of proper design exploration to solve the inherent issues it has. I think those old AC-Delco commercials used to say it best: "Pay a little more now, or a LOT MORE later."

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

One thing I can see from the outside is that the FR30 is conceptually solid, but in dire need of proper design exploration to solve the inherent issues it has.

I don't think its been established that the speaker has any issues at all at this point. All we have is a very rudimentary and arguably unfair measurement done by HiFi News in an all too brief technical write up. We really need to see the results of more comprehensive reviews to come (I hope). Somehow though I don't think the target buyer is going to be all that swayed by objective measurements and is more likely to be impressed by the speaker's looks and possibly ownership of other PS Audio products.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

I don't think its been established that the speaker has any issues at all at this point. All we have is a very rudimentary and arguably unfair measurement done by HiFi News in an all too brief technical write up. We really need to see the results of more comprehensive reviews to come (I hope). Somehow though I don't think the target buyer is going to be all that swayed by objective measurements and is more likely to be impressed by the speaker's looks and possibly ownership of other PS Audio products.

And I would agree that the measurement alone is not enough. And I do hope the FR30 is a solid design. But the rest of the supporting evidence doesn't really inspire confidence. Again, I agree with you that we can't be too judgmental based on one datapoint. There is also the fact that they could be going through additional design iterations and this is just them getting off to a rocky start. But with all the other supporting evidence from Octaves mixing and what can be gleaned from what can be heard and deduced from commentary and videos, I don't think that is the case. While such methods may be unorthodox, PS Audio is about as transparent as a reinforced concrete wall. But, I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong as I don't have any ill intent towards PS Audio, just that the optics are not too good at this point.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

PS Audio is about as transparent as a reinforced concrete wall. But, I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong as I don't have any ill intent towards PS Audio,just that the optics are not too good at this point.

The messaging is unarguably a mess, and Chris hasn't really made things a whole lot clearer. He might well be constrained in what he can say, but if it were me, I'd not say anything at all if I couldn't be forthright and detailed.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

The messaging is unarguably a mess, and Chris hasn't really made things a whole lot clearer. He might well be constrained in what he can say, but if it were me, I'd not say anything at all if I couldn't be forthright and detailed.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

No, the rear tweeter is a "super tweeter" and crossed over around 8-10 kHz depending on the level setting.

This idea goes back at least 50 years -- my old E-V Interface A speakers had a second (cone!) tweeter on the back of the enclosure, separately attenuated and high-passed quite a bit higher compared the front-firing tweeter.

Thanks for hanging in there, Chris -- this is tough crowd, to say the very least!

 

[amirm]

While we’re on that topic. The real reason for most people ”hating expensive things“ in audio is because they are the worst performers objectively.

I hope we exclude high-end speakers from that list. It simply is not cheap to produce a 100+ pound speaker that goes very low in response with great finish, etc for low cost. Electronics, yes (even then high power amps can be expensive). So I think you are being unfair here to Chris in this regard.

 

[amirm]

While such methods may be unorthodox, PS Audio is about as transparent as a reinforced concrete wall.

I think we need to give them/chris a ton of credit for being here and sharing things about his design process which we never see from vast number of companies. And answering our questions to the extent possible. This goes a long way toward transparency. So let's please give credit where it is due, lest we want to be happy with even less information about products.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

I think we need to give them/chris a ton of credit for being here and sharing things about his design process which we never see from vast number of companies. And answering our questions to the extent possible. This goes a long way toward transparency. So let's please give credit where it is due, lest we want to be happy with even less information about products.

My comments more were towards Paul in general, but yes as I stated in other posts I am indeed grateful that Chris is here to answer questions, there is no denying that. And to that end Paul at least seems to be a bit more open as of late, and we don't want to be divisive. But given their checkered past it sends mixed messages.

 

[dtaylo1066]

I think we need to give them/chris a ton of credit for being here and sharing things about his design process which we never see from vast number of companies. And answering our questions to the extent possible. This goes a long way toward transparency. So let's please give credit where it is due, lest we want to be happy with even less information about products.

I would whole heartedly agree with you, Amirm. I doubt few on this forum would pay 28K for speakers, but Chris is willing to come hear and discuss the product, which many are trashing without ever hearing or seeing data on the design. Last week the Mojo2 review and measurements depicted a most excellent product, but people had to trash its looks, its price, its designer, etc. It is easy to be an angry curmudgeon in an on-line forum, I guess.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

I hope we exclude high-end speakers from that list. It simply is not cheap to produce a 100+ pound speaker that goes very low in response with great finish, etc for low cost. Electronics, yes (even then high power amps can be expensive). So I think you are being unfair here to Chris in this regard.

I indeed am including electronics as well, to be fair. And there are plenty of high end speaker companies that really know their stuff, and really know how to design a good loudspeaker, but simply just choose not to publish anything, and given the current environment, that's understandable. And with respect I would disagree. Chris' tone was a bit unfair to us. It's the classic "haters gonna hate 'cause they're broke." Maybe you would have to have spent a lot of time in the car world to get that impression, but that was how it came off to me. It just felt somewhat snobbish. But that line of reasoning is often used to dismiss legitimate criticism of things as simply jealousy. To use Chris' own words, that in itself is a bit of a strawman argument to make. I don't hate things I can't afford, and only superficial people will feel that way. If its good, its good, and I have no issue with that. But if its a $100,000 speaker made from some critically endangered tree species from some pacific island that has a 4" speaker with a whizzer cone and a bunch of blather about no cross-overs and time alignment, then I think we are free to level some criticism. Yes its an absurd example, but just because its expensive shouldn't place it beyond criticism.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

I would whole heartedly agree with you, Amirm. I doubt few on this forum would pay 28K for speakers, but Chris is willing to come hear and discuss the product, which many are trashing without ever hearing or seeing data on the design. Last week the Mojo2 review and measurements depicted a most excellent product, but people had to trash its looks, its price, its designer, etc. It is easy to be an angry curmudgeon in an on-line forum, I guess.

The Mojo2 was a nice change of pace. A product that delivers on what it claims. Do I like the looks? No, but if it floats your boat then more power to you. It would be nice if more companies followed in their footsteps. One thing that I really detest about audiophile companies is the false paradigm of measurements being no match for listening, and only the most refined connoisseurs can appreciate true quality in sound reproduction. It just sows so much unnecessary division, and it would be great if the FR30 could be the follow-up to the Mojo2 in providing superlative objective and subjective performance. Perhaps I may be biased in that many moons ago when Paul started doing his "Ask Paul" series, I saw one and it was my first introduction to the "audiophile" mindset. I had heard of people like this, with one example being my buddy who worked at a pro-audio and instrument retailer who was recounting some deranged lunatic ranting about how much better a $10,000 power cable made his gear sound. I will withhold my initial impressions of Paul was saying to be respectful, but... Yeah. I think we know that story by now. I don't think he harbors ill-intent, but I think he is very much a man of tradition who is used to doing things a certain way. But, in the future maybe they can finally square the circle and make their subjectively claimed performance congruent with what's objectively measurable. I don't want nor like to be vindictive, but there is no getting around how deeply divided the audio community has become, much like many things today.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

I think we need to give them/chris a ton of credit for being here and sharing things about his design process which we never see from vast number of companies. And answering our questions to the extent possible. This goes a long way toward transparency. So let's please give credit where it is due, lest we want to be happy with even less information about products.

And maybe as a parting thought, and perhaps it might be interesting to get your perspective on this, but I think the need to err on the side of caution can often lead to valid criticism and scrutiny being withheld for fear of being presumptuous. Of course given your position in ASR I think it goes without saying that the need for you to be as objective as possible simply can't be overstated. But there is the opposite side of things in that when a company peddles bunk products, there are no constraints to what can be said. Simply make up a glossy brochure, and wax as poetically as you like without any regard to what it actually does. But I think its not necessarily appreciated how much work it is to disprove said lies. We see that with all the work and due diligence you have done. But I think one place the objective audio side is handicapped is in is responding to parties in bad faith who have no qualms with trying to poke holes in things and try and delegitimize valid test results that prove their claims to be false. Anyway, just my two cents...

 

[muad]

I'll ask you a rhetorical question: What's the cash flow difference for PS Audio between Chris Brunhaver doing a few days extra testing and PS Audio buying K NFS to do that testing? Answer - $100,000. If that was my business, and I'd never sold a speaker and with no certainty than I ever would, I'd make the same decision. Bear in mind they've recently scrapped a few other product ideas.

You should read Dave's ascend sierra Lx design thread... It clearly shows the value the NFS brings to the table. A few days of testing is grossly underestimating what it takes to build a good sounding speaker.

Introducing the Sierra-LX!!!

I am most pleased to announce the completion of an exciting new project!! *Note: Please use this link to place a pre-order: Sierra-LX pair Things here at Ascend might have appeared to be quiet, but the truth is we have been fully focused on intense R&D for quite a long while now. This...

forum.ascendacoustics.com

 

[richard12511]

I hope we exclude high-end speakers from that list. It simply is not cheap to produce a 100+ pound speaker that goes very low in response with great finish, etc for low cost. Electronics, yes (even then high power amps can be expensive). So I think you are being unfair here to Chris in this regard.

Wow, I just realized these things weight as much as the JTR 215RT, which is a much larger speaker, and super dense baltic birch. What the heck are these speakers made of? They certainly didn't skimp on the cabinet quality.

 

[Spkrdctr]

MOAR PS AUDIO PLZ. At this rate I'm going to OD on this stuff and have to unsub. Paul doing a, uh, rather revealing tour of Octave Studios. Check out what's at 4:14 in the video.

What is at 4:14? I missed whatever it was. Plus I have zero experience in mixing.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I would whole heartedly agree with you, Amirm. I doubt few on this forum would pay 28K for speakers, but Chris is willing to come hear and discuss the product, which many are trashing without ever hearing or seeing data on the design. Last week the Mojo2 review and measurements depicted a most excellent product, but people had to trash its looks, its price, its designer, etc. It is easy to be an angry curmudgeon in an on-line forum, I guess.

Best post of this thread! People trashing Paul, Chris and almost Chris's mother (slight exaggeration) and then state "Well, I don't want to be divisive and I hope it ends up well". Geez, pages of people trashing Chris, calling all of his design decisions basically wrong. With all of what he was tasked to do with the equipment on hand, we should be patting him on the back. He explains "why" something was done and everyone with no skin in the game and basically keyboard commandos, jump all over everything he says. Why on earth would he ever come back on ASR? There is a reason 95% of all engineers do not go on internet forums and talk about their work. People with no knowledge will argue endlessly with the engineer who is trained, paid and expected to perform. Being "in the game" is A LOT tougher than our members realize. Please treat Chris with the respect due in that at least he came on here and tried to explain why things are what they are. Plus people can disagree while being nice. Endlessly arguing the same points over and over is not being nice.

 

[Plcamp]

I used to run a global telecoms engineering team and compliance lab, and suggest from that experience that the automation of routine and data critical tasks was crucial to achieving timely, cost effective and trusted results from which major design decisions were made.

There were financial consequences for failing to meet product performance (including reliability and service availability) metrics with our customers. (That’s a big difference to this industry.)

My bias maybe. But having experienced it, I find it difficult to understand how any company seriously intending to compete in the speaker design space would not wish to follow a similar path and participate in the state of the art environment integrally within their design process.

 

[CtheArgie]

@Plcamp , I second that. I work in the pharma industry. And it drives me crazy how sometimes people want to cut corners while developing new drugs. You have to be very careful and despite this, mistakes are made. Trials have to be designed correctly, monitored extensively, analyzed carefully, written up cautiously. And still, unpredictable things happen. But the more you put in R&D, the lower the chance of surprises.

What is the expression? Fast, cheap and good. You can only have two at a time.

 

[Plcamp]

Fast, cheap and good.

In my last position with a startup, we argued our simulation service and SW (which assured the connectivity on super complex pcb’s was correct first time) allowed all three, by dramatically reducing the probability of a PCB artwork spin.

So I think you can do all three.