Carver Crimson 275 Review (Tube Amp)

[traderitch]

This has nothing to do with being an expert on tube amps, though being a tube amp, the potential voltages are even higher.

UL/CE or not, there is still the electrical code.

I am not debating that there are high voltages involved.

 

[AudioResurgence]

A few things are bothering me about this whole affair. (which I've followed through from a post on another forum) -

1 - I have a few boxes around here with captive two-prong power cords and a couple with detachable cords with two prongs. I've also an earth cheater, which is an adapter that accepts three-pronged power cords and has only two on the output. I use the cheater/adaptor on a sub to remove a ground loop. Are these electronics boxes (DVD player, a receiver, and some other junk), UL/FTC compliant, whereas the Carver box isn't? If so, why?

2 - I've seen only one mention in this long thread of the name E.J. Sarmento (Wyred4Sound). Over a year ago, this was released to the industry press:

"Wyred 4 Sound Announces Exclusive Licensing Agreement with The Bob Carver Corporation and the formation of Glass Audio America, LLC EJ Sarmento – President and Founder of Wyred 4 Sound is pleased to announce the formation of Glass Audio America, LLC for the purposes of manufacturing a complete line of Vacuum Tube and other products under exclusive license from The Bob Carver Corporation. Frank Malitz CEO of the Bob Carver Corporation has been appointed Vice President / Director of Sales and Marketing (National and International) for the newly formed Glass Audio America, LLC. Production of these new products will be in Mr. Sarmento’s newly expanded facilities in Astacadero, California. Frank Malitz will continue his base of operations in Chicago, Illinois".
You can read the full PR here: https://www.monoandstereo.com/2020/01/glass-audio-america-licenses-bob-carver.html

At appears from the above that Mr. Sarmento has manufacturing control over Carver products, hence may have some input on the selection and suitability (or otherwise), of the OT; which seems to be at the forefront of this discussion. If they are manufactured by 'Glass Audio America', a company with ownership connection to the reputable W4S, then I would imagine that Mr. Sarmento would generally object to producing something in his factory that performed contrary to one or more of its key stated performance parameters. Has anyone reached out for comment?

3 - Lastly, are we all entirely comfortable that the test methods employed here are fair*, and that we have sufficient justification, based on the methods employed and the results posted, for what seems to be a public lynching of Carver and this particular product? For example, does the word 'sustained', used/not used, impact the final analysis of these tests significantly, such that its absence in the stated company data casts an entirely different complexion on the whole affair? I'm asking that question because I don't know the answer, but given the serious nature of some of the allegations, aspersions, and inferences, I hope that someone does.

*Fair - I think a lot rests on the interpretation of the word 'fair', in this particular context. Given the wide range of potential loads which might be encountered by any power amplifier, is the particular method used in these tests a fair way to assess the amp's ability to meet its stated power output specifications? Is there an acceptable industry standard for these types of tests, and would the owner/designer of other brands of amplifiers be comfortable having the same assessments made of their own product? I suspect the answer is yes, but I'm asking because I genuinely do not know.

Cheers

 

[levimax]

The one my wife has includes GFCI protection knowing that accidents happen.

That would probably be the easiest way to fix the issue. It is not always that straight forward to just "ground" the case of a tube amp. I have done so on a couple of old tube amps I had and often times they will start to "hum". You can work around it but it is not just "connect to ground and be safe".

 

[sarumbear]

SOME of the amps that have been through my
rack have had a CE/UL designation and some have not. Many without the designation were $1k amps and some have been $8k amps.
There are no lawsuits filed or pending on any of them (that I am aware of). Not having the designation does not in itself make a
product dangerous.

I for one posted the US Federal Law about earthing on metal cased equipment. Just because there are lawsuits filed or pending doesn't change the existence of the law. Laws exist so that public knows what is a felony. You chose to ignore your country's laws. Carver Corp did the same and in law became a felon.

 

[paulbottlehead]

A few things are bothering me about this whole affair. (which I've followed through from a post on another forum) -

1 - I have a few boxes around here with captive two-prong power cords and a couple with detachable cords with two prongs. I've also an earth cheater, which is an adapter that accepts three-pronged power cords and has only two on the output. I use the cheater/adaptor on a sub to remove a ground loop. Are these electronics boxes (DVD player, a receiver, and some other junk), UL/FTC compliant, whereas the Carver box isn't? If so, why?

2 - I've seen only one mention in this long thread of the name E.J. Sarmento (Wyred4Sound). Over a year ago, this was released to the industry press:

"Wyred 4 Sound Announces Exclusive Licensing Agreement with The Bob Carver Corporation and the formation of Glass Audio America, LLC EJ Sarmento – President and Founder of Wyred 4 Sound is pleased to announce the formation of Glass Audio America, LLC for the purposes of manufacturing a complete line of Vacuum Tube and other products under exclusive license from The Bob Carver Corporation. Frank Malitz CEO of the Bob Carver Corporation has been appointed Vice President / Director of Sales and Marketing (National and International) for the newly formed Glass Audio America, LLC. Production of these new products will be in Mr. Sarmento’s newly expanded facilities in Astacadero, California. Frank Malitz will continue his base of operations in Chicago, Illinois".
You can read the full PR here: https://www.monoandstereo.com/2020/01/glass-audio-america-licenses-bob-carver.html

At appears from the above that Mr. Sarmento has manufacturing control over Carver products, hence may have some input on the selection and suitability (or otherwise), of the OT; which seems to be at the forefront of this discussion. If they are manufactured by 'Glass Audio America', a company with ownership connection to the reputable W4S, then I would imagine that Mr. Sarmento would generally object to producing something in his factory that performed contrary to one or more of its key stated performance parameters. Has anyone reached out for comment?

3 - Lastly, are we all entirely comfortable that the test methods employed here are fair*, and that we have sufficient justification, based on the methods employed and the results posted, for what seems to be a public lynching of Carver and this particular product? For example, does the word 'sustained', used/not used, impact the final analysis of these tests significantly, such that its absence in the stated company data casts an entirely different complexion on the whole affair? I'm asking that question because I don't know the answer, but given the serious nature of some of the allegations, aspersions, and inferences, I hope that someone does.

*Fair - I think a lot rests on the interpretation of the word 'fair', in this particular context. Given the wide range of potential loads which might be encountered by any power amplifier, is the particular method used in these tests a fair way to assess the amp's ability to meet its stated power output specifications? Is there an acceptable industry standard for these types of tests, and would the owner/designer of other brands of amplifiers be comfortable having the same assessments made of their own product? I suspect the answer is yes, but I'm asking because I genuinely do not know.

Cheers

1 - If a product is double insulated, the two prong power cord is OK.
2 - He has been CCd on an e-mail from an owner and should be aware of what's going on here.
3 - Amir is using an Audio Precision analyzer and that could certainly be considered an industry standard piece of measuring equipment for this job. Using a non-resistive load would more accurately quantify the performance of an amplifier into a loudspeaker, but these measurements (as far as I've ever seen) are always a bit worse and the reactive load itself isn't standardized, so simply using a resistor is more generous and would allow two different people to get the same measurements more reliably.

 

[john2017]

I for one posted the US Federal Law about earthing on metal cased equipment. Just because there are lawsuits filed or pending doesn't change the existence of the law. Laws exist so that public knows what is a felony. You chose to ignore your country's laws. Carver Corp did the same and in law became a felon.

Your post shows how little you understand the legal system here in the U.S. Part of the troubles with this thread are those assuming things in the United States must be the same as they are in the UK or the rest of Europe, or in Australia for that matter. That is simply not true. We do things differently here in the states, like driving on the proper side of the road, and using a different voltage for our electrical grid.... Our laws are different too.

What you state as "Federal Law" is actually not. It is a regulation, and does not constitute a felony for not following it unless, through negligence, injury or death occurs.

 

[sarumbear]

I use the cheater/adaptor on a sub to remove a ground loop.

So you are asking us if an adapter that you called "cheater" is compliant then why the Carver amp isn't?

Please go a head and read what you wrote

 

[traderitch]

I for one posted the US Federal Law about earthing on metal cased equipment. Just because there are lawsuits filed or pending doesn't change the existence of the law. Laws exist so that public knows what is a felony. You chose to ignore your country's laws. Carver Corp did the same and in law became a felon.

Be very careful in your wording...

I, personally, have done nothing illegal .

 

[Loron]

A few things are bothering me about this whole affair. (which I've followed through from a post on another forum) -

1 - I have a few boxes around here with captive two-prong power cords and a couple with detachable cords with two prongs. I've also an earth cheater, which is an adapter that accepts three-pronged power cords and has only two on the output. I use the cheater/adaptor on a sub to remove a ground loop. Are these electronics boxes (DVD player, a receiver, and some other junk), UL/FTC compliant, whereas the Carver box isn't? If so, why?

2 - I've seen only one mention in this long thread of the name E.J. Sarmento (Wyred4Sound). Over a year ago, this was released to the industry press:

"Wyred 4 Sound Announces Exclusive Licensing Agreement with The Bob Carver Corporation and the formation of Glass Audio America, LLC EJ Sarmento – President and Founder of Wyred 4 Sound is pleased to announce the formation of Glass Audio America, LLC for the purposes of manufacturing a complete line of Vacuum Tube and other products under exclusive license from The Bob Carver Corporation. Frank Malitz CEO of the Bob Carver Corporation has been appointed Vice President / Director of Sales and Marketing (National and International) for the newly formed Glass Audio America, LLC. Production of these new products will be in Mr. Sarmento’s newly expanded facilities in Astacadero, California. Frank Malitz will continue his base of operations in Chicago, Illinois".
You can read the full PR here: https://www.monoandstereo.com/2020/01/glass-audio-america-licenses-bob-carver.html

At appears from the above that Mr. Sarmento has manufacturing control over Carver products, hence may have some input on the selection and suitability (or otherwise), of the OT; which seems to be at the forefront of this discussion. If they are manufactured by 'Glass Audio America', a company with ownership connection to the reputable W4S, then I would imagine that Mr. Sarmento would generally object to producing something in his factory that performed contrary to one or more of its key stated performance parameters. Has anyone reached out for comment?

3 - Lastly, are we all entirely comfortable that the test methods employed here are fair*, and that we have sufficient justification, based on the methods employed and the results posted, for what seems to be a public lynching of Carver and this particular product? For example, does the word 'sustained', used/not used, impact the final analysis of these tests significantly, such that its absence in the stated company data casts an entirely different complexion on the whole affair? I'm asking that question because I don't know the answer, but given the serious nature of some of the allegations, aspersions, and inferences, I hope that someone does.

*Fair - I think a lot rests on the interpretation of the word 'fair', in this particular context. Given the wide range of potential loads which might be encountered by any power amplifier, is the particular method used in these tests a fair way to assess the amp's ability to meet its stated power output specifications? Is there an acceptable industry standard for these types of tests, and would the owner/designer of other brands of amplifiers be comfortable having the same assessments made of their own product? I suspect the answer is yes, but I'm asking because I genuinely do not know.

Cheers

Wyred4sound makers of the famous DAC 2v2……it measured really well isn’t it?……..
They also make great $1500 power cable and now the Carver tube amps!
Everything make sense now.

 

[sarumbear]

Your post shows how little you understand the legal system here in the U.S. Part of the troubles with this thread are those assuming things in the United States must be the same as they are in the UK or the rest of Europe, or in Australia for that matter. That is simply not true.

Why would a western citizen care about the difference between a law and regulation in US? This is a product that I can buy and shipped to the UK. If it is manufactured against a country's published regulations, in this country we understand that to be made against the law.

Your concept of hiding behind semantics is similar to what Mr. Carver is doing: hiding behind the concept of "don't measure it, listen to it."

 

[sarumbear]

Be very careful in your wording...

I, personally, have done nothing illegal .

Have I named you? I clearly named Mr Carver. Are you his advocate?

 

[traderitch]

Have I named you? I clearly named Mr Carver. Are you his advocate?

You replied to a comment I had made... correct?

In the body of your reply to me you stated "You chose to ignore your country's laws."

Are we clear?

 

[sarumbear]

You replied to a comment I had made... correct?

In the body of your reply to me you stated "You chose to ignore your country's laws."

Are we clear?

I made an observation based on what you had been posting. I then create a new sentence and called Mr Carver a felon.

What part of the above you imply is slander to you?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Maybe the thick crinkle paint makes it double insulated?

Or maybe they can switch to Flex seal red.

 

[sarumbear]

Your post shows how little you understand the legal system here in the U.S. Part of the troubles with this thread are those assuming things in the United States must be the same as they are in the UK or the rest of Europe, or in Australia for that matter. That is simply not true. We do things differently here in the states, like driving on the proper side of the road, and using a different voltage for our electrical grid.... Our laws are different too.

What you state as "Federal Law" is actually not. It is a regulation, and does not constitute a felony for not following it unless, through negligence, injury or death occurs.

I did a bit of research and also called an American lawyer friend. This is what I learned:

Regulations are rules that are created by a governmental agency, often to actually implement a law. They do not have to go through the bill process. Laws are rules that govern everyone equally, while regulations only effect those who deal directly with the agency who is enforcing them.

This means Carver is breaking the law as he is selling a product manufactured against federal regulations.

 

[paulbottlehead]

It's hard to know who to point the finger at. The schematic in the manual calls for the fuse and power switch to be on the same portion of the mains, which they are not in the build. There's also a 120/240 switch that's not present in the production units. The schematic has no mention of incoming earth, so maybe the three pin IEC power entry module was installed in error?

 

[TunaBug]

I for one posted the US Federal Law about earthing on metal cased equipment. Just because there are lawsuits filed or pending doesn't change the existence of the law. Laws exist so that public knows what is a felony. You chose to ignore your country's laws. Carver Corp did the same and in law became a felon.

I got excited when I read that post, because in spite of many people posting on this thread claiming that the amp's existence is illegal, there has been a scarcity of references to actual laws or regulations.

Because I like to search before asking, I went and read your 25 posts on this thread. In https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...75-review-tube-amp.29971/page-46#post-1057236 you posted a link, but that is for a regulation from the Department of Homeland Security that pertains specifically to electrical equipment for small passenger vessels (i.e. boats). So that regulation doesn't apply unless the manufacturer or dealer are marketing this for my boat.

I've tried googling for this myself, but my search-fu is lacking. I mostly get rules/reasons to provide proper grounding in my house wiring, but not anything about manufacturing and selling consumer electronics. I don't doubt its out there, I'm just not finding it.

While I'm mostly interested in U.S. laws or regulations on this, I'd be curious in pointers for other countries as well.

 

[john2017]

I did a bit of research and also called an American lawyer friend. This is what I learned:

Regulations are rules that are created by a governmental agency, often to actually implement a law. They do not have to go through the bill process. Laws are rules that govern everyone equally, while regulations only effect those who deal directly with the agency who is enforcing them.

This means Carver is breaking the law as he is selling a product manufactured against federal regulations.

Mr. Carver no longer is involved with any company that bears his name. Calling him a felon, when he bears no shame of conviction against his name, is in fact slander.

It would be best for you to stick with what you know personally from experience rather than try to impose your esteemed knowledge of how things work in the UK upon us here in the US. We may share the same language, but we are very different when it comes to how things get done.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Sorry wrong thread. Oops.

 

[SIY]

I got excited when I read that post, because in spite of many people posting on this thread claiming that the amp's existence is illegal, there has been a scarcity of references to actual laws or regulations.

Please see my earlier post with a link to BV's publication of the complete set of classes and regulatory requirements.