Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[JiiPee]

its with very subtil changes, i dont say "nothing" can be heared while A/B testing tho (i just say it can have its flaws), like i wrote before i actually did "blindtests" with the ac purifier by ifi and me and my friend could tell when it was plugged it and when exactly it was plugged in

this volume test is something different tho... and like i said i actually had to do some "training" (and i actually did it this way -> on the top of the page you can listen to the "exact" track, without guessing... and i did this multiple times, specially with "flat" and "quiter", if i wouldnt have done this i would have probably never got 10/10, thats one reason right there why i think it has its flaws
(just like with those "audiophil" changes, you have to hear them "once" so you know what to listen for....)

i just dont have the energy or time todo extensive a/b tests (and also bother a friend/familymember) all the time, for me its enough that i can tell the difference. end of story beside being pretty sure these people here would question everything about it if i tell them just the result x)

EDIT: here i did a photo of the test btw
i really wonder if i can do some training for 0,2db tho specially on my mainsetup, but the first test i did with headphones was like 0/8

There's no magic in "sound volume tests". Many people can demonstrably detect a 0.5dB difference with a very high reliability.

Claims regarding a/c purifiers etc... are something else. There have been several controlled tests with a large number of people participating and they have invariably failed to detect any difference. That means either:
a) You have supernatural capabilities regarding detection of sound quality variations.
or:
b) Your perception was influenced by confirmation bias, which is a well known and widely tested and proved human trait.

Which explanation do You think is more likely true?

 

[DanielT]

For many audiophiles the forums are only a forum for eloquence, swagger and other chest bending.
"Me sir, I hear therefore I am".
Luckily, this is only a hobby and fanciful statements have no other consequences than to bring to life the humorous forums said audiophile.
Just for that, the materialist that I am thanks you

It's just a hobby, you can do as you please of course. That's the beauty of Hifi.
However, one should beware of turning subjective experiences into objective truths that can be applied to everything and everyone. In addition to that, Hifi is mostly a playhouse for middle-aged men (me too). There are some exceptions though, BoredErica on quite active on ASR.

I guess the average age of those who write here is 50 years

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Hell, you fixed the test. Had my doubts. Hat off. Golden ears, congratulations to them.

ah i knew it, hence the picture x) thanks, kinda hard to belief some people just hear a 3db difference tho (but im unsure if they just do the test once, fail and call it a day but if they dont hear a "smitch" of a difference they also cant train it... soo ... hmm)
atleast there seems to be nothing wrong with training, you just have todo the test afterwards to show you "really" hear a difference

this actually makes me curious if i could really convince some of you with some specific A/B tests, for example between 2 opamps i know well (which should be one of the easier tests), tho they are hard to proof if they are not "digital" tests like the website... i guess i would have to make a video or something lol but my guess is even then i get "one opamp distorts/oscillates" hence the difference....

I who do not have such ears can plug in a tube amp from time to time. Then without getting too annoyed at the sound, on the contrary, but it's probably because the tube glow coziness helps to create that feeling. I'm fooling myself, but what does it matter? It is still a subjective experience. In that case, there is nothing wrong with subjectivism. As long as you are aware of it.

Ah that is actually on my list, to try a old good tube amp

yea subjectivsm can be a bitch, no doubt, specially if you "expect" things, its not that i try something and instantly say "ah yea thats it and call it a day", by no means actually, i test way to much back and forth once i started, specially at the beginning of my jorney, just because i questioned myself and couldnt understand how everyone says there is no difference... another thing which got me going was you can actually improve things for cheap ( atleast for opamps and if you DIY alot i dont spent 2k on cables either )

 

[DanielT]

ah i knew it, hence the picture x) thanks, kinda hard to belief some people just hear a 3db difference tho (but im unsure if they just do the test once, fail and call it a day but if they dont hear a "smitch" of a difference they also cant train it... soo ... hmm)
atleast there seems to be nothing wrong with training, you just have todo the test afterwards to show you "really" hear a difference

this actually makes me curious if i could really convince some of you with some specific A/B tests, for example between 2 opamps i know well (which should be one of the easier tests), tho they are hard to proof if they are not "digital" tests like the website... i guess i would have to make a video or something lol but my guess is even then i get "one opamp distorts/oscillates" hence the difference....


Ah that is actually on my list, to try a old good tube amp

yea subjectivsm can be a bitch, no doubt, specially if you "expect" things, its not that i try something and instantly say "ah yea thats it and call it a day", by no means actually, i test way to much back and forth once i started, specially at the beginning of my jorney, just because i questioned myself and couldnt understand how everyone says there is no difference... another thing which got me going was you can actually improve things for cheap ( atleast for opamps and if you DIY alot i dont spent 2k on cables either )

Test a tube amp. They're fun.
(you can "cheat" a bit when driving with tube amp and have an active subwoofer with class d amplifier for the lowest frequencies)

Good tube amp = $ and more $ , but here's a tip. This, in good condition, you can test. See if it's something for you. That model is so popular that you can always sell it later if you do not like "tube sound:

Review and Measurements of Dynaco ST 70

This is a review and detailed measurements of the vintage Dynakit Dynaco Stereo 70. It is on kind loan from a member who bought it used online and repaired it. Previous owner hand upgraded it but could not get it working. Given that it is 60 years old, one can forgive the rust and dust...

audiosciencereview.com

Regarding op amp "rolling":

Replace OP amps. Completely pointless, or not?

Why do so many OPs change amps in, for example, the amplifier AIYIMA A07 TPA3255? What's the point of that? Does not modern OPs amps amplify the signal completely linear straight(if the construction they sit in is well constructed, and made to fit OP amp X)? Do not modern OP amps have a...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Frgirard]

However, one should beware of turning subjective experiences into objective truths that can be applied to everything and everyone.

it is a major characteristic of animal cognition.

 

[DanielT]

it is a major characteristic of animal cognition.

Sharing experiences is important. I thought more about saying that Bolognese sauce, ragù alla bolognese, is the tastiest dish compared to saying that you think it is.

 

[Jimbob54]

You are referring to 3 posts that I have not read.
Where is any qualifier in any of these 33 pages.

I maybe dont read too well, but https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-everything-or-nothing.29062/post-1029079 sounds pretty sensible and littered with plenty of qualifiers

 

[storing]

if i wouldnt have done this i would have probably never got 10/10, thats one reason right there why i think it has its flaws

Problem with thinking like this is that it gets dangerously close to 'if after training I don't hear the difference and hence the test doesn't confirm my assumptions then test is flawed' because that would rule out the alternative option of there simply being no audible difference.

this actually makes me curious if i could really convince some of you with some specific A/B tests, for example between 2 opamps i know well (which should be one of the easier tests), tho they are hard to proof

Of course you could convince people like that, that's exactly how the science part works: if a number of people do a proper test a sufficient amount of times (e.g. in this case from a recording of a device before/after replacing opamps - and just to make sure more than once, and level matched etc), and the outcome is x% of people can reliably detect a difference, then people will be convinced there is in fact an audible difference.

 

[Frgirard]

Sharing experiences is important. I thought more about saying that Bolognese sauce, ragù alla bolognese, is the tastiest dish compared to saying that you think it is.

organic bolognese of course.

For the sharing experience, the excellent diy forum and other diy forums are good examples.

 

[DanielT]

organic bolognese of course.

For the sharing experience, the excellent diy forum and other diy forums are good examples.

Sharing experiences and/or knowledge and getting ideas and inspiration, I think is the most fun with music and Hifi.Basically every thread on ASR is about that, sharing.

The thread with the most posts on ASR? :

What are we listening to right now..

as it says on the tin, music we are enjoying or planning to listen too today.. i hope we all post our music here, all genres all formats so we can share our passions and learn from each other.

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Spkrdctr]

There's no magic in "sound volume tests". Many people can demonstrably detect a 0.5dB difference with a very high reliability.

Claims regarding a/c purifiers etc... are something else. There have been several controlled tests with a large number of people participating and they have invariably failed to detect any difference. That means either:
a) You have supernatural capabilities regarding detection of sound quality variations.
or:
b) Your perception was influenced by confirmation bias, which is a well known and widely tested and proved human trait.

Which explanation do You think is more likely true?

a) He has supernatural capabilities aka "God like hearing" regarding detection of sound quality variations.
He will go down in the history books as the having the best hearing on the planet for humans. He will soon be famous!

 

[Deleted member 23982]

I just found this video about the Jitterbug FMJ and thought i will throw it in

since this dude A/B`s it on camera and there is a clear difference, even with my crappy headphones, tho i already hear the argues

 

[DanielT]

a) He has supernatural capabilities aka "God like hearing" regarding detection of sound quality variations.
He will go down in the history books as the having the best hearing on the planet for humans. He will soon be famous!

It's good ears.

Decibel (dB) | Definition, Formula, & Facts

Decibel (dB), unit for expressing the ratio between two amounts of electric or acoustic power or for measuring the relative loudness of sounds.

www.britannica.com

 

[Spkrdctr]

It's good ears.

View attachment 175932

Decibel (dB) | Definition, Formula, & Facts

Decibel (dB), unit for expressing the ratio between two amounts of electric or acoustic power or for measuring the relative loudness of sounds.

www.britannica.com

That was directed at Gooseknight. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[Killingbeans]

I just found this video about the Jitterbug FMJ and thought i will throw it in

since this dude A/B`s it on camera and there is a clear difference, even with my crappy headphones, tho i already hear the argues

AudioQuest JitterBug USB Filter Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AudioQuest JitterBug USB data and power noise filter. It is on kind loan from a member. The Jitterbug costs US $60 from Amazon including prime shipping. I purchased a JitterBug back in 2015 when it had recently come out and my measurements...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I'm betting that A/B isn't level matched.

EDIT: I'm watching the video now... guess I'm a masochist.

EDIT2: Alright... burn-in on a USB filter. Seriously

I couldn't hear any difference in that A/B. The fact that it was: 'pause -> plug in -> continue' didn't really make good comparison possible at all.

Echoic memory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I must have tin ears

 

[DanielT]

That was directed at Gooseknight. Sorry for the confusion!

It's cool., Mine was aimed at... eh, see it as general information.

In general, if one does not believe that our senses can play a prank, that we fill in what we want to see and or hear what we want to hear. There are those who have used this for thousands of years. Go to any magic show and experience it.

We act on habit, of how it is (should be why it is), preconceived notions and so on. Life would not be possible to live otherwise, if one were to question everything one does and why. The crux is that you have to change approaches if you are to evaluate the sound quality of
Hi-Fi equipment. Objective evaluation that is.

To make it even more tricky, mix aesthetics into it all, see my post # 692 and it's almost impossible to keep one from the other. If you are going to do it yourself. Blind test, double ditto, performed according to all the rules of art is probably the only sensible solution.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

EDIT2: Alright... burn-in on a USB filter. Seriously

yea mainly because of capacitors is my guess, i can also confirm that cable burn in is a thing... pretty much all electronics tho the only explanation i can give is the audiophile "molecular structure change" with electrons flowing throw it...

I couldn't hear any difference in that A/B. The fact that it was: 'pause -> plug in -> continue' didn't really make good comparison possible at all.

seriously? dont focus on the "quality" its hard to hear with recorded speakers but for me the soundstage was pretty "obvious" changing, also like the "depth" of the music (tho i just listened once, so take it with a grain of salt) edit: i relistened and the first part just sounds more "2d" instead of "3d" to put it simple (maybe even more dynamic)
you can skip the pluggin part tho...

 

[DanielT]

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but is there any special tradition in the US to keep joking and fooling others around New Year?

 

[storing]

since this dude A/B`s it on camera and there is a clear difference, even with my crappy headphones, tho i already hear the argues

Well, yeah, a sighted A/B test, what could the response possibly be?

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but is there any special tradition in the US to keep joking and fooling others around New Year?

I assume it's for entertaining us Europeans?

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but is there any special tradition in the US to keep joking and fooling others around New Year?

no, im serious