Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[beefkabob]

So what makes you more knowledgeable than them? All I’ve seen in your posts are bad temper and no attempt to enter a rational discussion.

Uh hu. You ignored facts. People pointed out your ignored facts. Then you ignored that they pointed out the facts you ignored.

Clearly, I'm arguing in bad faith for calling you out on all this.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Uh hu. You ignored facts. People pointed out your ignored facts. Then you ignored that they pointed out the facts you ignored.

Clearly, I'm arguing in bad faith for calling you out on all this.

Made my case on the shortfalls inherent in the promotion and use of EVs. To many of you it’s become a sort of quasi religious cult, where any questioning of your beliefs is sacrilegious.

 

[beefkabob]

Made my case on the shortfalls inherent in the promotion and use of EVs. To many of you it’s become a sort of quasi religious cult, where any questioning of your beliefs is sacrilegious.

And then they countered your arguments. And then you ignored their counters and culled them cultists.

 

[kongwee]

Look at the size and complexity of an EV battery compared to a Lead/Acid ICE car battery. You still have to get the power from its source to the charging points, transmission and distribution capacity won’t be able to cope with the demand.

It is true EV battery is complex because you can design in many form factors for car up to buses and trucks. It is not complicated as doing ICE engine. There is no monopoly on who make EV batteries. The machine to make ICE engine your finger can count. EV batteries are easier. They are just from layers and layers of materials. Don't need highly digital high power CNC to craft a engine. Also charging for EV is good even on gas or coal power. The electricity load can be even distributed at night. The day and night electrical load can be even out. Power station can run on even RPM. It is good for gas/coal station to run at optimum RPM to save cost. For wind/power/hydro/storage/nuclear power. the charging at night w/o wasting the energy. Charging point have to be solve at government level. I mean you petrol station is planned by your government too.

 

[pseudoid]

...

I don't know if your ears were ringing earlier today, during the Bahrain F1 Practice3.
Nico Rosberg (et al) spoke very fondly of you and your mug shot was on SkyTV.

 

[j_j]

What will happen when EVs globally are in their billions and battery replacements are also numbered in the billions?

That's when recycling will be really effective, obviously. -1 for missing the obvious.

EVs are nowhere near the panacea some of you believe in.

1) Who says they are a panacea? A better solution is not a panacea. You're docked one point for the straw man, https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-...ogical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/ and a second point for offering a fact ("are nowhere near") not in evidence. https://rmfwlaw.com/firm-news-resources/legal-terminology/question-assumes-facts-evidence

Urban air quality is a severe health problem and the charging infrastructure will never be able to cope.

So, the lack of car exhaust will not change air quality at all? As to 'charging infrastructure', well, heavier than air machines will never fly, buggy whips will always have a market, and we will never get to the moon. You see the parallels there? -1 for ignoring improvements from lack of car exhaust and another -1 for facts not in evidence.

What percentage of urban car owning residents live in properties where there isn’t the possible of off road charging?

Good question. Given proper infrastructure how many will remain? -1 point for sea-lioning. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trolling +1 for a valid concern

Know a few people with EVs and they are proud to be driving an environmentally clean car, unfortunately some of them have wood burning fires, including Greta Thunberg’s family.

-1 for tu quoque fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

As a child in the 50s several days in the year walked 6 miles home from school thorough the smog, it was so dense all transportation stopped. We have climate crisis that needs solving so if I’m sceptical about EVs believe me it’s heart felt. Worked all of my life in Electrical Engineering and see different solutions to most of you.

Somewhat out of context, but one can not argue with a personal belief, even unsupported. You have this belief, I disagree. I'm also an EE hired initially to do low-noise analog circuitry, who's worked in a power generation plant summers. I don't question your sincerity, but I do question your conclusions. +1 for personal statement and +1 for acknowledging the climate crisis.

What I also question is your method and conduct of argument. Note: Your ARGUMENT, not your person. 3/10 is not a good result for a short argument.

 

[j_j]

People on other side of earth up north. Do not worry about car as public transportations are very dense. No 6 mile walk from home. Walk out of apartment, 5min walk to food and basic necessities. 15 min bus/subway to shopping malls. Don't need to cut wood. Used to be coal only for heating, now it is wind, solar travel from 1000 miles, gas and recent hydrogen/fuel cell. 75% don't even own a car in their lifetime in a 20 million people city.

This is most surely a good way. It's not the only way, but it is a good solution for some or perhaps many people. Add bicycles and it gets even better.

 

[j_j]

It is true EV battery is complex because you can design in many form factors for car up to buses and trucks. It is not complicated as doing ICE engine. There is no monopoly on who make EV batteries. The machine to make ICE engine your finger can count. EV batteries are easier. They are just from layers and layers of materials. Don't need highly digital high power CNC to craft a engine. Also charging for EV is good even on gas or coal power. The electricity load can be even distributed at night. The day and night electrical load can be even out. Power station can run on even RPM. It is good for gas/coal station to run at optimum RPM to save cost. For wind/power/hydro/storage/nuclear power. the charging at night w/o wasting the energy. Charging point have to be solve at government level. I mean you petrol station is planned by your government too.

I wouldn't say "more complex" except for the charge-balancing parts. Bigger, more identical parts, yes, but not so much complex, and yes, building a good ICE engine is a very precise piece of machining, polishing, balancing, testing, etc.

 

[j_j]

Made my case on the shortfalls inherent in the promotion and use of EVs. To many of you it’s become a sort of quasi religious cult, where any questioning of your beliefs is sacrilegious.

That's simply insulting.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

That's when recycling will be really effective, obviously. -1 for missing the obvious.


1) Who says they are a panacea? A better solution is not a panacea. You're docked one point for the straw man, https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-...ogical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/ and a second point for offering a fact ("are nowhere near") not in evidence. https://rmfwlaw.com/firm-news-resources/legal-terminology/question-assumes-facts-evidence


So, the lack of car exhaust will not change air quality at all? As to 'charging infrastructure', well, heavier than air machines will never fly, buggy whips will always have a market, and we will never get to the moon. You see the parallels there? -1 for ignoring improvements from lack of car exhaust and another -1 for facts not in evidence.


Good question. Given proper infrastructure how many will remain? -1 point for sea-lioning. https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trolling +1 for a valid concern


-1 for tu quoque fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque


Somewhat out of context, but one can not argue with a personal belief, even unsupported. You have this belief, I disagree. I'm also an EE hired initially to do low-noise analog circuitry, who's worked in a power generation plant summers. I don't question your sincerity, but I do question your conclusions. +1 for personal statement and +1 for acknowledging the climate crisis.

What I also question is your method and conduct of argument. Note: Your ARGUMENT, not your person. 3/10 is not a good result for a short argument.

Thanks for the 3/10 rather pleased. One conclusion of yours I definitely disagree with is EV owners heating their homes using fossil fuel, virtue signalling hypocrisy. When we bought our home we specified no fossil fuel supplies should be laid on, 100% electric, a good proportion of our energy use comes from renewable sources.

My comment on ‘quasi religious cult’ status was based on the vitriol many on this thread post in reply to dissent.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thanks for the 3/10 rather pleased. One conclusion of yours I definitely disagree with is EV owners heating their homes using fossil fuel, virtue signalling hypocrisy. When we bought our home we specified no fossil fuel supplies should be laid on, 100% electric, a good proportion of our energy use comes from renewable sources.

My comment on ‘quasi religious cult’ status was based on the vitriol many on this thread post in reply to dissent.

If anyone is displaying "quasi religious cult" opinions in this it would be you. You avoid data that does not fit with your preconceptions. Hypocrisy is bountiful anywhere you look for it. My home is 100% electric. Cleaner at least in my home (where I live most electricity is hydropower) and cheaper. OTOH, if it were more expensive I'd go the other way. Maybe it is my advanced and advancing age, but I don't care. EVs are just the better car. That more than anything is what will drive the adoption. Might not be the better option for all, but for many it is. Many enough it will find a substantial place in the market for cars. Does not need to do more than that. You seem to be the one in this thread who is trying to make EVs shoulder more responsibility for things that are at best peripheral to how people choose, use and buy cars.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

If anyone is displaying "quasi religious cult" opinions in this it would be you. You avoid data that does not fit with your preconceptions. Hypocrisy is bountiful anywhere you look for it. My home is 100% electric. Cleaner at least in my home (where I live most electricity is hydropower) and cheaper. OTOH, if it were more expensive I'd go the other way. Maybe it is my advanced and advancing age, but I don't care. EVs are just the better car. That more than anything is what will drive the adoption. Might not be the better option for all, but for many it is. Many enough it will find a substantial place in the market for cars. Does not need to do more than that. You seem to be the one in this thread who is trying to make EVs shoulder more responsibility for things that are at best peripheral to how people choose, use and buy cars.

Would say I’m agnostic where EVs are concerned for some they are the right option. Have a neighbour with a Tesla model 3 and for him it’s the right choice. He commutes into London two or three times a week and can get there and back on a single home charge. Within their limitations they work well, if it involves regular long distance travel then they do not.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Wow, the debate goes on & on. The issue of EVs comes up regularly on another audio forum I visit, and it's amazing the resistance I see to EVs -- every sort of cherry-picked factoid spun against the EV concept.

One amazing titbit is that some EV objectors are touting fuel cell vehicles. One even pushes the idea of natural gas fuel cells , though most a talking about hydrogen fuel cell. Vis-à-vis hydrogen fuels cells, for me, a non-expert, couple of qualms come to mind:

1. To be "green" hydrogen must be electrolyzed with a green energy source such as wind. In this scenario, at best, hydrogen may be seen as a way to store excess renewable energy produced off peak hours. Fine, but then exactly the same may be said of EV batteries where they are charge over night at the owners' homes.
2. Hydrogen to drive the fuel cells would require a new or vastly revised distribution infrastructure replacing the gasoline filling stations we see today on every other corner.

I like to see myself as a low energy, green energy, and EV advocate but feel hypocritical doing so. My family lives in a house heated with natural gas and we get around only in two ICE vehicles. We do use air conditioning extensively in summer and we get our energy exclusively from the grid. The only good news is that our electricity is generated mostly by nuclear, hydro, and after that, by wind; (see the graph below).

Sadly I don't see any easy way out of our personal fossil trap. Our furnace and AC are fairly new replacing with, say, a heat pump, would be a huge capital cost with payback like likely to exceed my limited remaining lifespan. Regarding our ICE cars, it's similar: they both have a few years remaining in their reliable lifespans and we aren't going to replace them for the sake of "virtue signaling", (as some might say). One car might be up for replacement in 2-3 years and we shall if EV prices are much reduced.

 

[j_j]

He commutes into London two or three times a week and can get there and back on a single home charge.

Just as an aside, I'm surprised any "intelligent" car would get within 5 km of the M25 Terry Pratchett had that one dead to rights in "Good Omens".

 

[Blumlein 88]

Would say I’m agnostic where EVs are concerned for some they are the right option. Have a neighbour with a Tesla model 3 and for him it’s the right choice. He commutes into London two or three times a week and can get there and back on a single home charge. Within their limitations they work well, if it involves regular long distance travel then they do not.

Yet my brother has one and has traveled on many long trips. Places further than one can travel in the UK. Just not a problem. Maybe the UK is behind the USA in infrastructure. Don't know, but in the USA in many places already very close to a non issue. Several gasoline/convenience stores are adding charging stations in my area in the USA. If one third of such places add charging it ceases to be any concern.

 

[j_j]

Yet my brother has one and has traveled on many long trips. Places further than one can travel in the UK. Just not a problem. Maybe the UK is behind the USA in infrastructure. Don't know, but in the USA in many places already very close to a non issue. Several gasoline/convenience stores are adding charging stations in my area in the USA. If one third of such places add charging it ceases to be any concern.

Yeah, the only problem in some areas around here is jerks who like to "ICE out" charging stations.

 

[Marc v E]

Wow, the debate goes on & on. The issue of EVs comes up regularly on another audio forum I visit, and it's amazing the resistance I see to EVs -- every sort of cherry-picked factoid spun against the EV concept.

One amazing titbit is that some EV objectors are touting fuel cell vehicles. One even pushes the idea of natural gas fuel cells , though most a talking about hydrogen fuel cell. Vis-à-vis hydrogen fuels cells, for me, a non-expert, couple of qualms come to mind:

1. To be "green" hydrogen must be electrolyzed with a green energy source such as wind. In this scenario, at best, hydrogen may be seen as a way to store excess renewable energy produced off peak hours. Fine, but then exactly the same may be said of EV batteries where they are charge over night at the owners' homes.
2. Hydrogen to drive the fuel cells would require a new or vastly revised distribution infrastructure replacing the gasoline filling stations we see today on every other corner.

I like to see myself as a low energy, green energy, and EV advocate but feel hypocritical doing so. My family lives in a house heated with natural gas and we get around only in two ICE vehicles. We do use air conditioning extensively in summer and we get our energy exclusively from the grid. The only good news is that our electricity is generated mostly by nuclear, hydro, and after that, by wind; (see the graph below).

Sadly I don't see any easy way out of our personal fossil trap. Our furnace and AC are fairly new replacing with, say, a heat pump, would be a huge capital cost with payback like likely to exceed my limited lifespan. Regarding our ICE cars, it's similar: they both have a few years remaining in their reliable lifespans and we aren't going to replace them for the sake of "virtue signaling", (as some might say). One car might be up for replacement in 2-3 years and we shall if EV prices are much reduced.

That makes total sense to me. Replacing items 1 by 1 as they become end of life.

As an aside, I too made some calculations, and will replace my car in 2 or 3 years with an ev because by then I need to replace it.

Heat pumps have a roi of 15 years here. Therefor I will wait until prices come down. What does make financial sense is buying an airco with a heatpump. Partly heating the house this way saves about 25% gas, which makes roi a few years depending on gas prices.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Yet my brother has one and has traveled on many long trips. Places further than one can travel in the UK. Just not a problem. Maybe the UK is behind the USA in infrastructure. Don't know, but in the USA in many places already very close to a non issue. Several gasoline/convenience stores are adding charging stations in my area in the USA. If one third of such places add charging it ceases to be any concern.

Investment here has always been a problem, no different when it comes to charging infrastructure. Read many articles on the EV charging network and chargers not working or no mobile phone connectivity when required seems to be a common thread. Hogging charging points after the vehicle is charged are not uncommon.

 

[vert]

During a recent visit a French relative was surprised not to see more EVs on the roads and asked why the government wasn't doing more so people buy EVs. I replied they are expensive even for the Swiss and as to government subsidies, saddling ten generations with debt just isn't something our government does. His car, an Audi, drove OK, to me not as nice as a regular car, but OK. The Christmas-lit interior was a bit difficult on the senses, I didn't ask if some of the lights could be turned off. I drove a Suzuki hybrid extensively on a recent vacation, the driving experience wasn't anything to remember.

 

[Marc v E]

During a recent visit a French relative was surprised not to see more EVs on the roads and asked why the government wasn't doing more so people buy EVs. I replied they are expensive even for the Swiss and as to government subsidies, saddling ten generations with debt just isn't something our government does. His car, an Audi, drove OK, to me not as nice as a regular car, but OK. The Christmas-lit interior was a bit difficult on the senses, I didn't ask if some of the lights could be turned off. I drove a Suzuki hybrid extensively on a recent vacation, the driving experience wasn't anything to remember.

Was the car you drove by any chance an Audi E-tron? It's a VW ID4 underneath and a prime example of the OEMs not making the most out of an ev, according to Sandy Munro.