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Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

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Suffolkhifinut

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I look forward to a time when our countryside is covered with old EV batteries.
Is there a future for old EVs in the used car market? £10k for a replacement Tesla battery, £14k for a Nissan replacement battery. So many older ICE cars still on the road after 10+ years. So much pollution is caused in the manufacture of vehicles, a recent review on the new Volvo EV came to the conclusion keeping an older ICE Volvo was environmentally better?
 

MediumRare

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I look forward to a time when our countryside is covered with old EV batteries.
Is there a future for old EVs in the used car market? £10k for a replacement Tesla battery, £14k for a Nissan replacement battery. So many older ICE cars still on the road after 10+ years. So much pollution is caused in the manufacture of vehicles, a recent review on the new Volvo EV came to the conclusion keeping an older ICE Volvo was environmentally better?
I don’t understand why you keep saying that after the extended discussion of reuse of EV batteries for static storage (especially grid) and then for recycling. @Blumlein 88 just yesterday posted about the successful recovery of 95% of the metal in EV batteries. My math values the recovered materials at $6k per vehicle. Regarding replacement cost, who would ever invest even $3k in a 12 year-old car (other than a collectible?) Reuse/recycle/replace. Time to find another horse to beat.
 

MediumRare

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Suffolkhifinut

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I don’t understand why you keep saying that after the extended discussion of reuse of EV batteries for static storage (especially grid) and then for recycling. @Blumlein 88 just yesterday posted about the successful recovery of 95% of the metal in EV batteries. My math values the recovered materials at $6k per vehicle. Regarding replacement cost, who would ever invest even $3k in a 12 year-old car (other than a collectible?) Reuse/recycle/replace. Time to find another horse to beat.
The problem is many of you can’t see any further than a battery lit future. Electrical generation is needed to charge them and in a recent UK report they point out most wind turbine installations are far away from major centres of population. The reached the conclusion our national grid in the UK can’t cope with the maximum output from wind turbines and they are paying for them not to generate. Before EVs cause even more problems cause an even greater demand the transmission and distribution systems need to be upgraded. A large scale wind farm is being built off the coast of East Anglia. the request for transmission line installations to the South East of England is stuck in a planning quagmire. What’s the point of battery storage units when the problem lies elsewhere?
 

MediumRare

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The problem is many of you can’t see any further than a battery lit future. Electrical generation is needed to charge them and in a recent UK report they point out most wind turbine installations are far away from major centres of population. The reached the conclusion our national grid in the UK can’t cope with the maximum output from wind turbines and they are paying for them not to generate. Before EVs cause even more problems cause an even greater demand the transmission and distribution systems need to be upgraded. A large scale wind farm is being built off the coast of East Anglia. the request for transmission line installations to the South East of England is stuck in a planning quagmire. What’s the point of battery storage units when the problem lies elsewhere?
"Yes, but…" ad infinitum. This is no longer a useful conversation.

While you continue to declare the future cannot happen, it continues to happen. This view from the UK is being replicated all over the world. As the saying goes, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."
 

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Suffolkhifinut

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“Lead, follow or get out of the way.” More than a bit arrogant! Your view of the future is misguided and we need to get power to where it’s needed. The UK government has software fitted to domestic charging stations to ensure EVs don’t overload the national grid.
 

MediumRare

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j_j

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I look forward to a time when our countryside is covered with old EV batteries.

Did you miss the very recent post on actual, testable, verifiable, profitable recycling of batteries?

At that ratio they can recycle, it makes old batteries the equivalent of a gold mine.
 
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Suffolkhifinut

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But they aren't realistic. The changes that will occur with a switch to more EVs takes time. They aren't there yet. But one by one they are happening while you seem to back up and add another Yeah but.....
What will happen when EVs globally are in their billions and battery replacements are also numbered in the billions? EVs are nowhere near the panacea some of you believe in. Urban air quality is a severe health problem and the charging infrastructure will never be able to cope. What percentage of urban car owning residents live in properties where there isn’t the possible of off road charging? Know a few people with EVs and they are proud to be driving an environmentally clean car, unfortunately some of them have wood burning fires, including Greta Thunberg’s family. As a child in the 50s several days in the year walked 6 miles home from school thorough the smog, it was so dense all transportation stopped. We have climate crisis that needs solving so if I’m sceptical about EVs believe me it’s heart felt. Worked all of my life in Electrical Engineering and see different solutions to most of you.
 
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kongwee

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People on other side of earth up north. Do not worry about car as public transportations are very dense. No 6 mile walk from home. Walk out of apartment, 5min walk to food and basic necessities. 15 min bus/subway to shopping malls. Don't need to cut wood. Used to be coal only for heating, now it is wind, solar travel from 1000 miles, gas and recent hydrogen/fuel cell. 75% don't even own a car in their lifetime in a 20 million people city.
 

Blumlein 88

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What will happen when EVs globally are in their billions and battery replacements are also numbered in the billions? EVs are nowhere near the panacea some of you believe in. Urban air quality is a severe health problem and the charging infrastructure will never be able to cope. What percentage of urban car owning residents live in properties where there isn’t the possible of off road charging? Know a few people with EVs and they are proud to be driving an environmentally clean car, unfortunately some of them have wood burning fires, including Greta Thunberg’s family. As a child in the 50s several days in the year walked 6 miles home from school thorough the smog, it was so dense all transportation stopped. We have climate crisis that needs solving so if I’m sceptical about EVs believe me it’s heart felt. Worked all of my life in Electrical Engineering and see different solutions to most of you.
There have been something over 2 billion cars made. Each needed 3-5 lead acid batteries in its life. We don't have 10 billion batteries laying about do we? Nor will be for EV batteries either. At the time early on lead was toxic and so should we have just kept on with the mechanical hand crank or developed some spring wound starter or compressed air starter or something? Again some sort of the charging infrastructure will be put in place in time. Whether it lets people in inner cities use EVs exclusively or not each one helps the local air quality. I've said a few times for myself I don't even care about the panacea aspect. EVs are just a better automobile. I don't care if someone drives an EV and burns a fire. EV's are not going to continue growing as a percentage of cars because of environmental smugness. As more people experience them, and various issues of convenience using them improve people are simply going to want one instead of an ICE vehicle.

Just in the USA, 380 million gallons of waste oil is recycled each year and another 200 million is not recycled. 680 million gallons of waste oil. If we had EVs and were going to ICE would you look at that potential number and say "oh, we can never manage that, it will be an environmental and logistical nightmare"?

I don't know if 20 years from now EVs will be 95% of vehicles sold or 20% or something in between. I don't see any reason that either percentage cannot be made to work well enough. Like now, if I live where yards are small, and I have to park on the street I am not going to buy an RV motorhome. If I live where that is not a restriction to me then maybe I would. Maybe in dense neighborhoods when an old house falls into disrepair, one on each block will be turned into a charging station for a dozen cars or so. Then people will be able to use an EV. We already have parking lots in large cities. I'm nearly certain in time they'll add charging as an option.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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There have been something over 2 billion cars made. Each needed 3-5 lead acid batteries in its life. We don't have 10 billion batteries laying about do we? Nor will be for EV batteries either. At the time early on lead was toxic and so should we have just kept on with the mechanical hand crank or developed some spring wound starter or compressed air starter or something? Again some sort of the charging infrastructure will be put in place in time. Whether it lets people in inner cities use EVs exclusively or not each one helps the local air quality. I've said a few times for myself I don't even care about the panacea aspect. EVs are just a better automobile. I don't care if someone drives an EV and burns a fire. EV's are not going to continue growing as a percentage of cars because of environmental smugness. As more people experience them, and various issues of convenience using them improve people are simply going to want one instead of an ICE vehicle.

Just in the USA, 380 million gallons of waste oil is recycled each year and another 200 million is not recycled. 680 million gallons of waste oil. If we had EVs and were going to ICE would you look at that potential number and say "oh, we can never manage that, it will be an environmental and logistical nightmare"?

I don't know if 20 years from now EVs will be 95% of vehicles sold or 20% or something in between. I don't see any reason that either percentage cannot be made to work well enough. Like now, if I live where yards are small, and I have to park on the street I am not going to buy an RV motorhome. If I live where that is not a restriction to me then maybe I would. Maybe in dense neighborhoods when an old house falls into disrepair, one on each block will be turned into a charging station for a dozen cars or so. Then people will be able to use an EV. We already have parking lots in large cities. I'm nearly certain in time they'll add charging as an option.
Look at the size and complexity of an EV battery compared to a Lead/Acid ICE car battery. You still have to get the power from its source to the charging points, transmission and distribution capacity won’t be able to cope with the demand.
 

Marc v E

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Iirc ev charging stations usually have big batteries underground to deal with peak demand. Similtanuously a great solution imo to deal with peak supplies.

And quite a few ev charging stations now come with solar panels. Makes a lot of sense imo.
 
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beefkabob

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I look forward to a time when our countryside is covered with old EV batteries.
Is there a future for old EVs in the used car market? £10k for a replacement Tesla battery, £14k for a Nissan replacement battery. So many older ICE cars still on the road after 10+ years. So much pollution is caused in the manufacture of vehicles, a recent review on the new Volvo EV came to the conclusion keeping an older ICE Volvo was environmentally better?
You make zero sense whatsoever. Your post as no link to reality. Your "recent review" isn't linked, and whoever wrote it is bad at math and critical thinking. No wonder they became a car reviewer.
I don’t understand why you keep saying that after the extended discussion of reuse of EV batteries for static storage (especially grid) and then for recycling. @Blumlein 88 just yesterday posted about the successful recovery of 95% of the metal in EV batteries. My math values the recovered materials at $6k per vehicle. Regarding replacement cost, who would ever invest even $3k in a 12 year-old car (other than a collectible?) Reuse/recycle/replace. Time to find another horse to beat.
Because it's not logical or fact-based. It's political. Some people cannot see past the tip of their own eyelashes. Seeing to the tips of their noses is a challenge they leave to their betters.
The problem is many of you can’t see any further than a battery lit future. Electrical generation is needed to charge them and in a recent UK report they point out most wind turbine installations are far away from major centres of population. The reached the conclusion our national grid in the UK can’t cope with the maximum output from wind turbines and they are paying for them not to generate. Before EVs cause even more problems cause an even greater demand the transmission and distribution systems need to be upgraded. A large scale wind farm is being built off the coast of East Anglia. the request for transmission line installations to the South East of England is stuck in a planning quagmire. What’s the point of battery storage units when the problem lies elsewhere?
Most of your oil is coming from the Middle East, and until recently, from Russia. You're whining about getting some electricity by wire from partway across your own country. DOES NOT COMPUTE! DOES NOT COMPUTE! LOGICAL INCONSISTENCY! DOES NOT COMPUTE!
Did you miss the very recent post on actual, testable, verifiable, profitable recycling of batteries?

At that ratio they can recycle, it makes old batteries the equivalent of a gold mine.
Shut the hell up with your facts and logic. Listen to @Suffolkhifinut. All audiophiles know that logic doesn't matter, and science is for objectivist tools.
What will happen when EVs globally are in their billions and battery replacements are also numbered in the billions? EVs are nowhere near the panacea some of you believe in. Urban air quality is a severe health problem and the charging infrastructure will never be able to cope. What percentage of urban car owning residents live in properties where there isn’t the possible of off road charging? Know a few people with EVs and they are proud to be driving an environmentally clean car, unfortunately some of them have wood burning fires, including Greta Thunberg’s family. As a child in the 50s several days in the year walked 6 miles home from school thorough the smog, it was so dense all transportation stopped. We have climate crisis that needs solving so if I’m sceptical about EVs believe me it’s heart felt. Worked all of my life in Electrical Engineering and see different solutions to most of you.
We all know that mass transit doesn't exist. We all know that urban planning is a myth. We all know that wood burning fires are somehow a piece in your argument that somehow makes sense in some way that nobody but you can fathom. And Greta Thunberg just ain't that hot, so we cannot power steam turbines with her. And somehow you have heard that EVs are the only piece of the energy puzzle solution, so you're going to beat that strawman bloody. Why doesn't straw bleed!!!???!!!???
Look at the size and complexity of an EV battery compared to a Lead/Acid ICE car battery. You still have to get the power from its source to the charging points, transmission and distribution capacity won’t be able to cope with the demand.
Look at the complication of an ICE vehicle compared to a bicycle. Clearly ICE vehicles won't work. We should all be riding horses, because metal is hard to form into bicycles. And scooping horse manure is difficult, and there aren't enough stables in urban centers, so we need to walk, but then there's not enough sidewalk, so we should all just stay at home, stop having children, and just argue on the internets because, as electrical engineers, we know how everything in the world works and are the only experts in existence.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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You make zero sense whatsoever. Your post as no link to reality. Your "recent review" isn't linked, and whoever wrote it is bad at math and critical thinking. No wonder they became a car reviewer.

Because it's not logical or fact-based. It's political. Some people cannot see past the tip of their own eyelashes. Seeing to the tips of their noses is a challenge they leave to their betters.

Most of your oil is coming from the Middle East, and until recently, from Russia. You're whining about getting some electricity by wire from partway across your own country. DOES NOT COMPUTE! DOES NOT COMPUTE! LOGICAL INCONSISTENCY! DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Shut the hell up with your facts and logic. Listen to @Suffolkhifinut. All audiophiles know that logic doesn't matter, and science is for objectivist tools.

We all know that mass transit doesn't exist. We all know that urban planning is a myth. We all know that wood burning fires are somehow a piece in your argument that somehow makes sense in some way that nobody but you can fathom. And Greta Thunberg just ain't that hot, so we cannot power steam turbines with her. And somehow you have heard that EVs are the only piece of the energy puzzle solution, so you're going to beat that strawman bloody. Why doesn't straw bleed!!!???!!!???

Look at the complication of an ICE vehicle compared to a bicycle. Clearly ICE vehicles won't work. We should all be riding horses, because metal is hard to form into bicycles. And scooping horse manure is difficult, and there aren't enough stables in urban centers, so we need to walk, but then there's not enough sidewalk, so we should all just stay at home, stop having children, and just argue on the internets because, as electrical engineers, we know how everything in the world works and are the only experts in existence.
Replying to your rebuttals on the comments I made.
1. The figures for replacement batteries were broadcast on 5th gear, on the viability of high mileage used EVs.

2. Oil comes from all over the World included the UK and has a proven supply route, robust enough to come with increased demands, unlike multinational electrical transmission and distribution systems.
The Volvo comments were made on a Sunday Times Review article.

3. Can’t relate your comments to my post on EV battery scrappage,

4. Bicycles are an efficient method of transport, perhaps the most efficient form of transport. After that you completely seem to lose the plot?
 
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beefkabob

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Replying to your rebuttals on the comments I made.
1. The figures for replacement batteries were broadcast on 5th gear, on the viability of high mileage used EVs.

2. Oil comes from all over the World included the UK and has a proven supply route, robust enough to come with increased demands, unlike multinational electrical transmission and distribution systems.
The Volvo comments were made on a Sunday Times Review article.

3. Can’t relate your comments to my post on EV battery scrappage,

4. Bicycles are an efficient method of transport, perhaps the most efficient form of transport. After that you completely seem to lose the plot?
1. Lol. 5th gear. Those environmental experts.
2. Lol. Sunday Times. Those environmental experts. Was it Clarkson? He's big on science.
3. I can relate.
4. That's because there's no plot to follow.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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1. Lol. 5th gear. Those environmental experts.
2. Lol. Sunday Times. Those environmental experts. Was it Clarkson? He's big on science.
3. I can relate.
4. That's because there's no plot to follow.
So what makes you more knowledgeable than them? All I’ve seen in your posts are bad temper and no attempt to enter a rational discussion.
 
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