Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Oldasdrt]

I looked into the Toyota Mirai last time I was considering a new car.
There were 2 problems, the first was the nearest hydrogen refuelling station to me is 20 miles away, wasting an hour and 40 miles worth of fuel every fill up, since it isn't on a route I ever take. I am lucky too, that is closer than most.

The biggest problem, though, was it is as heavy as an EV but has 180bhp.

Infrastructure,,,,

 

[Oldasdrt]

How's that, now? A modern high-efficiency furnace requires maintenance every other year, better every year, just like a heat pump. They are more expensive, but not "much more" by any stretch of imagination. While I've had one unit break down once in 7 years (3 outdoor units), I really can't blame it for having a big branch from a doug fir land on the exterior plumbing. That's no better or worse than the gas furnace, frankly, that seems to like to eat an induced draft fan every 10 years if not more often.

As to "not much more efficient", just how do you get there? 22 SEER like our units are rated (seems pretty close to what we see according to bills before and after) is rather a lot more efficient than a 97% PVC ducted NG furnace. That's about 6 watts out per watt in, as compared to about .97 watts out per watt in. Just how DO you get that to be "not much more efficient, anyhow"? 6 times the energy efficiency at the point of the house seems pretty good to me! Even the older units are 3 to 1 gain. They're quiet, effective, and using ductless units you can dodge things like horrific ductwork and digging in walls. Actually thanks to staggered install one of ours has an SEER of 17, the others are 22.xx SEER. So not quite 6:1 for all, but all you have to do is divide by 3.4, so 17/3.4=5 for the older unit. Not bad at 5:1, either, really. Rather better than under 1:1.

These are real numbers, attached to real meters in a real house by an engineer who has installed a heating system or two himself in the past (but who doesn't lift heavy things any more).

IMO, Better to stick with a High Eff Furn and High Seer AC, Im not talking Ductless, Just my opinion from a 22-year HVAC Tech

 

[Oldasdrt]

I looked into the Toyota Mirai last time I was considering a new car.
There were 2 problems, the first was the nearest hydrogen refuelling station to me is 20 miles away, wasting an hour and 40 miles worth of fuel every fill up, since it isn't on a route I ever take. I am lucky too, that is closer than most.

The biggest problem, though, was it is as heavy as an EV but has 180bhp.

Either Way, your still using energy to produce the fuel, and even with solar, you still have to produce the cells, dilemma,
Still I think Hydrogen is the way to go, with the infrastructure included

 

[j_j]

I looked into the Toyota Mirai last time I was considering a new car.
There were 2 problems, the first was the nearest hydrogen refuelling station to me is 20 miles away, wasting an hour and 40 miles worth of fuel every fill up, since it isn't on a route I ever take. I am lucky too, that is closer than most.

The biggest problem, though, was it is as heavy as an EV but has 180bhp.

If they can manage solar (probably biological) water cracking for H2, maybe then it's a going thing, but storage is hard. It's light, it's hard to compress, let alone liquify, and it loves to leak right on through an amazing number of otherwise impermeable materials.

But having said that, it is a really great fuel!

 

[Oldasdrt]

If they can manage solar (probably biological) water cracking for H2, maybe then it's a going thing, but storage is hard. It's light, it's hard to compress, let alone liquify, and it loves to leak right on through an amazing number of otherwise impermeable materials.

But having said that, it is a really great fuel!

Let alone the cost of the Stainless steel tanks to hold the Hydrogen

 

[Jimster480]

Lithium ion batteries are totally recyclable. There's just not an industry set up to recycle them, yet. Lead acid gets recycled because there are regulations that create economic incentives to recycle, as well as disincentives to not recycle. For instance, if I buy a lead acid battery, there's a $10 or so fee, but if I turn in an old lead acid battery, I get the fee back. There are roadblocks to widespread lithium ion recycling, but they're far from insurmountable.

Yes but recycling Lithium is about 50x more complex than Lead Acid is because of the temps involved and the instability of the elements. Lead Acid batteries don't tend to physically explode or catch fire that can burn underwater.

As far as EV cars go, DONT PARK THEM IN YOUR GARAGE

The right way to go IMHO is Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles

Hydrogen can be an option in the future but the production of Hydrogen is insanely expensive. Need some Nuclear plants to produce the energy to split water to make enough Hydrogen since there isn't enough naturally occuring hydrogen in the world to fuel a massive amount of vehicles. However this does have the benefit of reusing most of our existing tech and fixes all problems with range and fill-ups.

How's that, now? A modern high-efficiency furnace requires maintenance every other year, better every year, just like a heat pump. They are more expensive, but not "much more" by any stretch of imagination. While I've had one unit break down once in 7 years (3 outdoor units), I really can't blame it for having a big branch from a doug fir land on the exterior plumbing. That's no better or worse than the gas furnace, frankly, that seems to like to eat an induced draft fan every 10 years if not more often.

As to "not much more efficient", just how do you get there? 22 SEER like our units are rated (seems pretty close to what we see according to bills before and after) is rather a lot more efficient than a 97% PVC ducted NG furnace. That's about 6 watts out per watt in, as compared to about .97 watts out per watt in. Just how DO you get that to be "not much more efficient, anyhow"? 6 times the energy efficiency at the point of the house seems pretty good to me! Even the older units are 3 to 1 gain. They're quiet, effective, and using ductless units you can dodge things like horrific ductwork and digging in walls. Actually thanks to staggered install one of ours has an SEER of 17, the others are 22.xx SEER. So not quite 6:1 for all, but all you have to do is divide by 3.4, so 17/3.4=5 for the older unit. Not bad at 5:1, either, really. Rather better than under 1:1.

These are real numbers, attached to real meters in a real house by an engineer who has installed a heating system or two himself in the past (but who doesn't lift heavy things any more).

I agree. I have a Panasonic XE Mini Split in my office here and it is 22+ SEER. Based on the energy it uses when its on; it is the most efficient thing in my house.
My Daikin main home Split system is also crazy efficient but I think it is only 17-18 SEER. However the ability for me to keep my house cool even during the summer at 90F+ in the Florida Summer while using under 3kw for the whole house is pretty amazing to me. When Hurricane Ian hit I ran half my house from a single small generator for 5 days. While I didn't have 220 to turn on my AC; I used everything else without an issue and never popped the breaker.
I only had to take my Microwave & Other counter top ovens outside on my porch because they are literally is the most power hungry things in my house outside of my range or griddle.
I wouldn't have even had to do that if I had a proper transfer switch in my house, but the electrical company is backed up...

 

[Oldasdrt]

Yes but recycling Lithium is about 50x more complex than Lead Acid is because of the temps involved and the instability of the elements. Lead Acid batteries don't tend to physically explode or catch fire that can burn underwater.

Hydrogen can be an option in the future but the production of Hydrogen is insanely expensive. Need some Nuclear plants to produce the energy to split water to make enough Hydrogen since there isn't enough naturally occuring hydrogen in the world to fuel a massive amount of vehicles. However this does have the benefit of reusing most of our existing tech and fixes all problems with range and fill-ups.

I agree. I have a Panasonic XE Mini Split in my office here and it is 22+ SEER. Based on the energy it uses when its on; it is the most efficient thing in my house.
My Daikin main home Split system is also crazy efficient but I think it is only 17-18 SEER. However the ability for me to keep my house cool even during the summer at 90F+ in the Florida Summer while using under 3kw for the whole house is pretty amazing to me. When Hurricane Ian hit I ran half my house from a single small generator for 5 days. While I didn't have 220 to turn on my AC; I used everything else without an issue and never popped the breaker.
I only had to take my Microwave & Other counter top ovens outside on my porch because they are literally is the most power hungry things in my house outside of my range or griddle.
I wouldn't have even had to do that if I had a proper transfer switch in my house, but the electrical company is backed up...

Ductless is definitely Fantastic, no doubt

 

[Oldasdrt]

Yes but recycling Lithium is about 50x more complex than Lead Acid is because of the temps involved and the instability of the elements. Lead Acid batteries don't tend to physically explode or catch fire that can burn underwater.

Hydrogen can be an option in the future but the production of Hydrogen is insanely expensive. Need some Nuclear plants to produce the energy to split water to make enough Hydrogen since there isn't enough naturally occuring hydrogen in the world to fuel a massive amount of vehicles. However this does have the benefit of reusing most of our existing tech and fixes all problems with range and fill-ups.

I agree. I have a Panasonic XE Mini Split in my office here and it is 22+ SEER. Based on the energy it uses when its on; it is the most efficient thing in my house.
My Daikin main home Split system is also crazy efficient but I think it is only 17-18 SEER. However the ability for me to keep my house cool even during the summer at 90F+ in the Florida Summer while using under 3kw for the whole house is pretty amazing to me. When Hurricane Ian hit I ran half my house from a single small generator for 5 days. While I didn't have 220 to turn on my AC; I used everything else without an issue and never popped the breaker.
I only had to take my Microwave & Other counter top ovens outside on my porch because they are literally is the most power hungry things in my house outside of my range or griddle.
I wouldn't have even had to do that if I had a proper transfer switch in my house, but the electrical company is backed up...

Just go with a Rocket Stove Propelled car, sticks to burn, but still emissions a guy actually built one, many years ago.
I would love to build one to power our house they are great for cooking though

 

[Chromatischism]

A differing view on cold climate heat pumps:

https://www.consumerreports.org/hea...s-actually-work-in-cold-climates-a4929629430/
Personally, I can't stand heat pumps. Their blowers are intended to operate continuously, and the blower noise is completely unacceptable. (Figure high 40s db to low 50s db.) The variable-speed units are better, but they're far from silent. In our area the electric utility company has a program where they modify your AC system to work that way too, the blower runs 24/7 during the summer months. No way.

So you haven't seen the inverter units then? Almost everyone is getting into the game, Gree, Daikin, Mitsubishi, Midea...they are very quiet, way quieter than standard A/C units, and produce heat down to -22F. When I build a house it won't be built without one.

 

[Oldasdrt]

So you haven't seen the inverter units then? Almost everyone is getting into the game, Gree, Daikin, Mitsubishi, Midea...they are very quiet, way quieter than standard A/C units, and produce heat down to -22F. When I build a house it won't be built without one.

Geothermal, but expensive, constant 50 degrees

 

[Absolute]

There was a combined gas/hydrogen gas station 3 minutes from me. Out of nowhere the storage container under ground went boom and lifted the whole station area a meter or so. No more hydrogen station.

I'm never going to drive around in a local hydrogenbomb, regardless of how clever engineers think they can design a container as cheap as possible.

 

[beefkabob]

I could dispute the other things you wrote, but I'd be repeating myself...... again. However, BIOMASS, should be known as BIOMESS. It not only is not great, it is hardly even any good.

Perhaps without getting all into the weeds, one number should make clear why it isn't worth doing if any other path is available. Biomass with the best plants for it, turn about 2% of the received solar energy into fuel energy. Much biomass overall returns only 95% of the energy involved in creating it. In a very few special areas that may even be okay. Overall, the more of it we make the worse off it will be. At best maybe it comes out 2% ahead of energy break even. Usually not. EROEI (Energy returned on energy invested) is near 1 give or take a bit.

In the early days of oil, EROEI was 80 to 100. Depending upon particulars it may be 15-20 now (less for oil shale or oil sands). Natural gas was 150 in the early days and is also 15-20 now. Solar is at least a few like 7-15 (this could improve with better cell efficiency). Wind is around 20. Biomass is not worth doing unless it is a side effect of some other process.

When I think of biomass, I think of my neighbors who heat their homes by gathering wood on their own properties, typically from trees that fell or needed cutting. I also think of people in undeveloped nations who pick up and burn cow patties. Then there are small scale power plants that burn methane or similar gasses gained from other industrial processes, like from farming and landfills. Biomass is neutral and even net positive when it's all about the detritus, from reducing methane releases to just cleaning up local messes.

In comparison, large scale ethanol production from corn, fertilized with mined potash and gathered with diesel farm equipment, is utterly insane.

So, anyway, I think I completely agree with you.

 

[Oldasdrt]

There was a combined gas/hydrogen gas station 3 minutes from me. Out of nowhere the storage container under ground went boom and lifted the whole station area a meter or so. No more hydrogen station.

I'm never going to drive around in a local hydrogenbomb, regardless of how clever engineers think they can design a container as cheap as possible.

They would use Stainless Steel tanks,
They hold Hydrazine with no problems, under pressure,
Wonder what kind of underground tanks they were?

 

[Oldasdrt]

When I think of biomass, I think of my neighbors who heat their homes by gathering wood on their own properties, typically from trees that fell or needed cutting. I also think of people in undeveloped nations who pick up and burn cow patties. Then there are small scale power plants that burn methane or similar gasses gained from other industrial processes, like from farming and landfills. Biomass is neutral and even net positive when it's all about the detritus, from reducing methane releases to just cleaning up local messes.

In comparison, large scale ethanol production from corn, fertilized with mined potash and gathered with diesel farm equipment, is utterly insane.

So, anyway, I think I completely agree with you.

Ethanol is terrible too, not just because of the emissions

 

[MediumRare]

Here's an interesting heat pump summary and recommendation for colder climates. https://carbonswitch.com/best-cold-climate-heat-pump/

Basically, it says they work very (properly selected) well down to -13 deg F. Since Chicago has gone below that 6 winters in the past 30 years, is there anything practical to prevent the house chilling on those nights other than extra clothes/blankets?

I suppose if you can save $500/year it would be worthwhile to make that compromise.

[Shouldn't we branch discussion of heat pumps to a separate thread?]

 

[blueone]

So you haven't seen the inverter units then? Almost everyone is getting into the game, Gree, Daikin, Mitsubishi, Midea...they are very quiet, way quieter than standard A/C units, and produce heat down to -22F. When I build a house it won't be built without one.

Yes, I discussed inverter units with HVAC contractors before we replaced one of our units. Our home uses roof-mounted systems, and the additional cost of the 18.5 SEER Bosch system one of the contractors recommended made no financial sense at all (the payback from the additional investment was several years), compared to the 16 SEER single speed unit we ended up installing. The other contractors said they had installed inverter units, but didn't recommend them due to being just as noisy in very hot or cold weather, and had much higher complexity which resulted in more warranty-related service calls. (Inverter units are generally too new to be out of warranty.) Roof-mounted units also have installation footprint challenges, and while you can switch footprints the aluminum adapters are apparently leak-prone.

Amusingly, when our hot water heater came up for replacement about 18 months ago my first thought was a tankless unit, until I talked to a couple of neighbors who went with tankless, and had nothing good to say about them WRT reliability. I ended up installing another tank unit, though the technology has improved.

We live in a neighborhood where most of the homes are between 15 to 20 years old, so there's a lot of heating / cooling / plumbing system work being done. Listening to my neighbors is very interesting. The older I get the more I demand proven reliable technology over the latest trendy stuff.

 

[beefkabob]

Being a former HVAC Tech, Heat pumps are much more expensive, break more often,and aren't really that much more efficient.even in warm climates,much better to go with a high efficient furn and stick with AC

We have three heat pumps on my property: the main house, the apartment over the garage, and the mancave. They do make a bit of noise that can be heard when outside. They have been far more reliable than the propane appliance they replaced. We didn't get the fanciest or nicest pumps models, just the most standard that the local warehouse sold the most of. The repairs in the past six years have been to swap a broken wall thermostat, repair some mouse-eaten wires, replace a dead motor capacitor, and cut back weeds. All of those repairs could have happened in a standard system. This compares to annually climbing into the attic for cleaning off the sooty flame guides of our old propane unit. That sucked!

I would like to add some soft-start capacitors. I wouldn't mind a variable speed system. My HVAC friends didn't think they were worthwhile, though.

 

[beefkabob]

Yes but recycling Lithium is about 50x more complex than Lead Acid is because of the temps involved and the instability of the elements. Lead Acid batteries don't tend to physically explode or catch fire that can burn underwater.

50x seems a bit of hyperbole. I'm not familiar with the exact processes of battery recycling.

 

[beefkabob]

Basically, it says they work very (properly selected) well down to -13 deg F. Since Chicago has gone below that 6 winters in the past 30 years, is there anything practical to prevent the house chilling on those nights other than extra clothes/blankets?

I suppose if you can save $500/year it would be worthwhile to make that compromise.

Cold climate heat pumps are often supplemented with resistance heating. Or you use the heat pump for 95% of your needs, and then you have a fireplace or the old system still installed for the last 5%.

 

[Chromatischism]

Yes, I discussed inverter units with HVAC contractors before we replaced one of our units. Our home uses roof-mounted systems, and the additional cost of the 18.5 SEER Bosch system one of the contractors recommended made no financial sense at all (the payback from the additional investment was several years), compared to the 16 SEER single speed unit we ended up installing. The other contractors said they had installed inverter units, but didn't recommend them due to being just as noisy in very hot or cold weather, and had much higher complexity which resulted in more warranty-related service calls. (Inverter units are generally too new to be out of warranty.) Roof-mounted units also have installation footprint challenges, and while you can switch footprints the aluminum adapters are apparently leak-prone.

Definitely, when you pass 16-18 SEER diminishing returns set in pretty severely.

I think when buying a heat pump, as long as you're in the ballpark of 20 SEER it's enough, and other variables become more important. 25-30 SEER is hardly going to make a difference at that point, at least not one worth the extra cost. Heating capability at low temperatures, fan noise, etc become more important.. And on that, I've seen 40-50 dB, which is nothing. There are videos of people standing next to them and talking no problem, even with snow on the ground. I could never do that with my current A/C. They are normally units from MrCool or Amazon like Cooper & Hunter. These are made by Midea, Gree, Mitsubishi, etc.

One of the reasons I'm convinced to try the inverter-driven side-fan type units and not the older heat pumps that look like traditional A/C condensers, is their variable speed motor.