Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[NiagaraPete]

Well, we have heat pumps. It was down to 20 F last night, and the heat pumps were doing fine. The ductless units are very, very quiet unless they are running full tilt, which they usually only do in the heat of summer, AND they are 1/3 the cost of natural gas heating with our rates outside Seattle.

I will say I would stick with ground storage heat pumps if I lived in Minneapolis or Bismarck, but air-fed units do fine here.

I live in a place where we have so much electricity that we dump sell it to the USA at a loss. Sadly it’s still much cheaper to burn gas to heat my home.

 

[beefkabob]

Heat pumps move heat from one place to another. That's far more efficient than creating heat.

 

[j_j]

Well, we have heat pumps. It was down to 20 F last night, and the heat pumps were doing fine. The ductless units are very, very quiet unless they are running full tilt, which they usually only do in the heat of summer, AND they are 1/3 the cost of natural gas heating with our rates outside Seattle.

I'm curious... how do you know the heat pumps are 1/3 the cost of heating with natural gas?

Very simple.

A year ago January our gas bill was 350$
The units went in last week of January.
February electric went up 105$
Gas bill was 35$ (minimum charge, only hot water, drier, and cooktop)

This trend has continued until now.

 

[j_j]

You have no idea how ICE engine is being made and amount of iron and chemical wasted compare to make EV motor and battery. All the five point are pretty useless.

All 5 points are entirely valid, although the "waste" one is not particularly so as time goes on.

What's missing is the comparison to the even worse issues involved with ICE's, both manufacture and operation.

 

[kongwee]

All 5 points are entirely valid, although the "waste" one is not particularly so as time goes on.

What's missing is the comparison to the even worse issues involved with ICE's, both manufacture and operation.

China will tell you point 2 is pretty useless, it does improve cities PM2.5 and decrease carbon dioxide even it is 70% running on fossil fuel.
Point 3, you will have sodium battery that is pretty abundant and CATL are selling such battery. There are alternative to lithium.
Point 4 is something is wasting time. There is no difference between EV and ICE.
Point 5 EV battery are huge even your 12V 40AH alkaline acid battery in your ICE car battery are worth recycling. But couldn't say about US as they are known to dump than recycle. My country recycle 99%

 

[blueone]

Point 5 EV battery are huge even your 12V 40AH alkaline acid battery in your ICE car battery are worth recycling. But couldn't say about US as they are known to dump than recycle. My country recycle 99%

The recycling rate of lead-acid batteries in the US is above 99%.

 

[beefkabob]

EVs bad for the environment? This sort of article can be found in many places.

https://www.makeuseof.com/why-are-electric-cars-bad-for-the-environment/

The author's bio:

 

[Chromatischism]

The recycling rate of lead-acid batteries in the US is above 99%.

I'd love to believe that statistic. We have "safe levels" of most chemicals and compounds out there...there is no safe level of lead. Zero is ideal because it never leaves your body once it attaches to oxygen receptors.

Anyway, great to hear.

 

[Jimster480]

I'm curious... how do you know the heat pumps are 1/3 the cost of heating with natural gas?

I wouldn't be surprised because they really sip energy. I have a 2800Sq foot house with 2 inverter Heat pump systems and on average I use like 2kwh unless I am cooking on my electric stove or using another kitchen appliance. The only other exception is my hot water heater (that I am looking into replacing with a heat pump).
My workstations use the majority of my power... if I turn them both off them I am at 1.4kw for the whole house.

You have no idea how ICE engine is being made and amount of iron and chemical wasted compare to make EV motor and battery. All the five point are pretty useless.

That isn't the problem. The thing is that the batteries are not really recyclable and there is not enough Lithium or Cobalt. We are destroying the planet mining to make batteries.
Additionally the big deal is really the ability to charge said cars. Nuclear reactors need to be built everywhere in order to power these cars and the issues are still related to the storage of energy vs weight. Without new battery tech EV's have already almost reached their limits in terms of energy storage and charging speeds...

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wouldn't be surprised because they really sip energy. I have a 2800Sq foot house with 2 inverter Heat pump systems and on average I use like 2kwh unless I am cooking on my electric stove or using another kitchen appliance. The only other exception is my hot water heater (that I am looking into replacing with a heat pump).
My workstations use the majority of my power... if I turn them both off them I am at 1.4kw for the whole house.

That isn't the problem. The thing is that the batteries are not really recyclable and there is not enough Lithium or Cobalt. We are destroying the planet mining to make batteries.
Additionally the big deal is really the ability to charge said cars. Nuclear reactors need to be built everywhere in order to power these cars and the issues are still related to the storage of energy vs weight. Without new battery tech EV's have already almost reached their limits in terms of energy storage and charging speeds...

Well companies are recycling them. So one of your points is not true. As for current state of charging speeds, a number of offerings go from 10% to 80% in around 20 minutes for cars with 350 mile ranges. Not quite up to refueling an ICE machine, but not too bad. Plus it only matters mostly for long trips. You'll charge it when not in use at home. Finally, energy storage for 350 miles seems quite adequate to me. So I don't see any big negatives there.

As for building power plants maybe. Is that overall a negative? ICE vehicles must use fossil fuel. If we use fossil fuel to electricity more efficiently and cleanly than using it inside the vehicle a slight benefit at least. Plus the option to use solar, wind, or nuclear if it comes to that. I don't see how we have to build nuclear everywhere for this. Nuclear is a lower carbon generator though expensive in up front costs. As long as it is even close on everything, EVs are generally just better cars to own and use.

 

[beefkabob]

That isn't the problem. The thing is that the batteries are not really recyclable and there is not enough Lithium or Cobalt. We are destroying the planet mining to make batteries.
Additionally the big deal is really the ability to charge said cars. Nuclear reactors need to be built everywhere in order to power these cars and the issues are still related to the storage of energy vs weight. Without new battery tech EV's have already almost reached their limits in terms of energy storage and charging speeds...

Lithium ion batteries are totally recyclable. There's just not an industry set up to recycle them, yet. Lead acid gets recycled because there are regulations that create economic incentives to recycle, as well as disincentives to not recycle. For instance, if I buy a lead acid battery, there's a $10 or so fee, but if I turn in an old lead acid battery, I get the fee back. There are roadblocks to widespread lithium ion recycling, but they're far from insurmountable.

 

[beefkabob]

I don't see how we have to build nuclear everywhere for this. Nuclear is a lower carbon generator though expensive in up front costs. As long as it is even close on everything, EVs are generally just better cars to own and use.

Beyond direct costs, the negatives of nuclear are the accident risks and the waste that remains dangerous for immensely long times. Nuclear may be a stopgap solution in the short term, but in the long term, it's a horrifying mistake.

Fossil fuel plants are only competitive on cost because they don't have to pay for their impacts upon global warming.

Solar, hydro, wind, tidal, and geothermal are, on the whole, far cheaper overall, and at least cost competitive in the marketplace where nuclear and fossil don't actually have to pay for their long term impacts.

Biomass is great too, but I think only in the small scale.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Biomass is great too, but I think only in the small scale.

I could dispute the other things you wrote, but I'd be repeating myself...... again. However, BIOMASS, should be known as BIOMESS. It not only is not great, it is hardly even any good.

Perhaps without getting all into the weeds, one number should make clear why it isn't worth doing if any other path is available. Biomass with the best plants for it, turn about 2% of the received solar energy into fuel energy. Much biomass overall returns only 95% of the energy involved in creating it. In a very few special areas that may even be okay. Overall, the more of it we make the worse off it will be. At best maybe it comes out 2% ahead of energy break even. Usually not. EROEI (Energy returned on energy invested) is near 1 give or take a bit.

In the early days of oil, EROEI was 80 to 100. Depending upon particulars it may be 15-20 now (less for oil shale or oil sands). Natural gas was 150 in the early days and is also 15-20 now. Solar is at least a few like 7-15 (this could improve with better cell efficiency). Wind is around 20. Biomass is not worth doing unless it is a side effect of some other process.

 

[kongwee]

That isn't the problem. The thing is that the batteries are not really recyclable and there is not enough Lithium or Cobalt. We are destroying the planet mining to make batteries.
Additionally the big deal is really the ability to charge said cars. Nuclear reactors need to be built everywhere in order to power these cars and the issues are still related to the storage of energy vs weight. Without new battery tech EV's have already almost reached their limits in terms of energy storage and charging speeds...

So steel you don't need to mine? You don't need to mine cruel oil too. Lol. Anyway you have sodium coming in. Lesser than 125 miles you don't need lithium at all. US as a car culture country, it is not enough. However country outside US and EU, they can't bare their butt on seat for two hour on car. Many countries car are luxury, you have bus, subway, high speed train. My country are reducing need for private cars with better infrastructure. Just for you info, cobalt is a industry compound just in lots of area, not just EV. You can scream no cobalt for battery, but you need cobalt for petroleum desulphurisation. Your iphone need cobalt. Your F35 need 50kg of cobalt each. You don't scream for them. Cobalt and lithium you can recycle them. Give china for your expired batteries.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Well companies are recycling them. So one of your points is not true. As for current state of charging speeds, a number of offerings go from 10% to 80% in around 20 minutes for cars with 350 mile ranges. Not quite up to refueling an ICE machine, but not too bad. Plus it only matters mostly for long trips. You'll charge it when not in use at home. Finally, energy storage for 350 miles seems quite adequate to me. So I don't see any big negatives there.

As for building power plants maybe. Is that overall a negative? ICE vehicles must use fossil fuel. If we use fossil fuel to electricity more efficiently and cleanly than using it inside the vehicle a slight benefit at least. Plus the option to use solar, wind, or nuclear if it comes to that. I don't see how we have to build nuclear everywhere for this. Nuclear is a lower carbon generator though expensive in up front costs. As long as it is even close on everything, EVs are generally just better cars to own and use.

I have been running an EV for 3 months now after 10 years of plug in hybrid showed how much better it is to charge at home than to stand at a petrol pump.

The hybrids don't use much petrol at all around home, maybe 10 to 20 gallons per year, with maybe the same again on the few long journeys we do.

I have charged the EV away from home twice since I bought it, I didn't know it well enough to trust the "fuel gauge" at first, on both occasions plugged car in, went into cafe to get hot chocolate, waited to get it, drank it and went back to the car and drove on. Ie pretty well zero time loss, even compared to refuelling with petrol where I would have had to have done that separate to a cafe visit.
So I am very happy with my choice and it fits my needs better than petrol ever did and is much more convenient, quieter and pretty quick.

We are heading for a net-zero power grid here, though objections form well funded oil company lobbyists persist, amazingly. England is probably too population dense to have enough hydro/solar/wind for all use, I expect Scotland can with wind and hydro.

I have solar cells on my roof but only 3.25 kWh so a big help but not enough for all needs in winter.

I would not have bought either an EV or plug in hybrid if I didn't have a place to park and charge at home.

 

[Oldasdrt]

A differing view on cold climate heat pumps:

https://www.consumerreports.org/heat-pumps/can-heat-pumps-actually-work-in-cold-climates-a4929629430/

Personally, I can't stand heat pumps. Their blowers are intended to operate continuously, and the blower noise is completely unacceptable. (Figure high 40s db to low 50s db.) The variable-speed units are better, but they're far from silent. In our area the electric utility company has a program where they modify your AC system to work that way too, the blower runs 24/7 during the summer months. No way.

We have whole-house natural gas fueled radiant heat, and it's amazingly efficient and effective. And completely silent, just what an audiophile wants.

Being a former HVAC Tech, Heat pumps are much more expensive, break more often,and aren't really that much more efficient.even in warm climates,much better to go with a high efficient furn and stick with AC

 

[j_j]

China will tell you point 2 is pretty useless, it does improve cities PM2.5 and decrease carbon dioxide even it is 70% running on fossil fuel.
Point 3, you will have sodium battery that is pretty abundant and CATL are selling such battery. There are alternative to lithium.
Point 4 is something is wasting time. There is no difference between EV and ICE.
Point 5 EV battery are huge even your 12V 40AH alkaline acid battery in your ICE car battery are worth recycling. But couldn't say about US as they are known to dump than recycle. My country recycle 99%

I agree with all of these. I'm not sure why you may think otherwise.

The problem with the cited article is that it compares EV's to having NOTHING. When you compare it to an ICE, it's better in all respects. Quite aside from the obvious hydrocarbon fuel issues (from extraction, through distribution, through deliver, and use), the cost for all that steel is pretty formidable, as is the cost for the various plastics, the maintenance materials (oil, filters, etc), in terms of actual environmental damage. What can you do with a leftover oil filter, then?

The whole article smacks of inequitable comparison from start to finish. I've seen a coal mine, and iron mines, etc. That's no better than any rare earth mine in any fashion, and the sulfides and sulfates left behind by both kinds of mining are a raging mess, and more material is required.

 

[Oldasdrt]

As far as EV cars go, DONT PARK THEM IN YOUR GARAGE

The right way to go IMHO is Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles

 

[j_j]

Being a former HVAC Tech, Heat pumps are much more expensive, break more often,and aren't really that much more efficient.even in warm climates,much better to go with a high efficient furn and stick with AC

How's that, now? A modern high-efficiency furnace requires maintenance every other year, better every year, just like a heat pump. They are more expensive, but not "much more" by any stretch of imagination. While I've had one unit break down once in 7 years (3 outdoor units), I really can't blame it for having a big branch from a doug fir land on the exterior plumbing. That's no better or worse than the gas furnace, frankly, that seems to like to eat an induced draft fan every 10 years if not more often.

As to "not much more efficient", just how do you get there? 22 SEER like our units are rated (seems pretty close to what we see according to bills before and after) is rather a lot more efficient than a 97% PVC ducted NG furnace. That's about 6 watts out per watt in, as compared to about .97 watts out per watt in. Just how DO you get that to be "not much more efficient, anyhow"? 6 times the energy efficiency at the point of the house seems pretty good to me! Even the older units are 3 to 1 gain. They're quiet, effective, and using ductless units you can dodge things like horrific ductwork and digging in walls. Actually thanks to staggered install one of ours has an SEER of 17, the others are 22.xx SEER. So not quite 6:1 for all, but all you have to do is divide by 3.4, so 17/3.4=5 for the older unit. Not bad at 5:1, either, really. Rather better than under 1:1.

These are real numbers, attached to real meters in a real house by an engineer who has installed a heating system or two himself in the past (but who doesn't lift heavy things any more).

 

[Frank Dernie]

As far as EV cars go, DONT PARK THEM IN YOUR GARAGE

The right way to go IMHO is Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles

I looked into the Toyota Mirai last time I was considering a new car.
There were 2 problems, the first was the nearest hydrogen refuelling station to me is 20 miles away, wasting an hour and 40 miles worth of fuel every fill up, since it isn't on a route I ever take. I am lucky too, that is closer than most.

The biggest problem, though, was it is as heavy as an EV but has 180bhp.