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Your loudspeakers are too small!

tvih

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Are my speakers too small? Maybe, for someone else's preferences. They might also be too cheap (despite the main speakers not being cheap at all)... for someone else's preferences. In the meanwhile I'm perfectly happy with my small speakers for my listening volumes, especially when augmented with a sub. My entire apartment might be one big man cave as it is, but that doesn't mean I want to put up with a bunch of speakers the size of a walk-in closet given the already severely limited space :p "Normal" floorstanders vs standmounts already doesn't make any meaningful difference.
 
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Newman

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Good, at least there seems to be general agreement that microdynamics is a joke. Took long enough, but we got there in the end.
a consensus does not science make.
I'm convinced my speakers, your speakers and 98% of enthusiasts speakers are too small. Too small not only to provide enough headroom for uncompressed loud dynamic peaks, but too small (and inefficient) to provide micro-dynamics at lower volumes.
Nor does an unsupported assertion (above, post #1). Show us the science to support your assertion.
 
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Digby

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You will be the first to know when my comprehensive scientific paper comes out. In the meanwhile I would say that being dismissive for its own sake is not particularly scientific either - sceptical, sure, but dismissive, no.
 

Descartes

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I'm convinced my speakers, your speakers and 98% of enthusiasts speakers are too small. Too small not only to provide enough headroom for uncompressed loud dynamic peaks, but too small (and inefficient) to provide micro-dynamics at lower volumes. Increasing amplifier wattage does not solve this issue.

I can't see a way out of this scenario, big speakers aren't exactly inconspicuous (or beautiful for that matter), but I think of the reviews of 5" or 6" bass driver bookshelf speakers looking for ever better measurements could just be chasing our collective tails. Is there really something groundbreaking yet to come out of such small speakers, however expensive?

Even the Genelec Ones have an optional W371A bass unit to go with it, to free them up from reproducing the difficult bass region, suggesting that for all it's clever design, you can't fight physics and what physics demands is more cone area & larger cabinet size.

If you have the space (and most of us do), then what you need are bigger speakers.
Nope just four subs and my KEF LS50 Meta do just fine!
 
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Digby

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I suppose it depends. I'm sure the system is very good and nothing to sniff at, but there is probably a big difference in the subs ability from 30-80hz compared to LS50 from 80hz to around 300hz. There are some holes in performance that can't be filled with subs, they just don't go high enough.
 

Newman

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I would say that being dismissive for its own sake is not particularly scientific either - sceptical, sure, but dismissive, no.
I wasn't the one writing all the jokes. Here's what happened:-
  1. @krabapple sincerely asked what are micro dynamics, exactly;
  2. a string of jocular inanities ensued, and nothing else;
  3. you joined in;
  4. in the spirit of it all, I joined in with "so we are all agreed it's a joke, took a while but we got there";
  5. you suddenly turned on me, just me, and insisted you are deadly serious!
Now that's what I call cherry-picking @MattHooper! Why didn't you spot that one, hmm? (BTW I didn't cherry-pick or trawl the thread; I just listed all the answers in a string straight after krabapple's question -- if I left any out it was just more jokes like "mega dynamics must be related to Sony's Walkman feature Megabass".)
 
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Digby

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@krabapple sincerely asked what are micro dynamics, exactly;
He could've trawled the bazillion different replies, good, bad or otherwise in the umpteen pages in this thread already. Maybe that is why we tried having a little fun, we've been round the houses fifteen times already. To no avail, as usual, so why not lighten the mood? :p

you suddenly turned on me, just me, and insisted you are deadly serious!
You are taking this very literally, I haven't turned on you. I was enjoying the jocular tone and you made it all serious again :oops:. Let's all get back to being jocular again, if only as a short reprieve from being at each other's throats. :D
 

Newman

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LOL, not fooled. Why didn't you take MattHooper on for actually being the one who took it back to all serious again, link? Not to mention yourself, link! Hypocrisy rules in your reaction to my post vs others...
 
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Digby

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The reason I say you made it serious again, is because nobody takes MattHooper seriously, ergo it cannot be he who made things serious, can it? Also, I prefer not to take any responsibility for any seriousness on my part, it was only fleeting and I will try to my best to avoid it in future, lest I get a reputation for such things. Unfortunately, that leaves you as the singular source of seriousness here.

Look, I don't make the rules here, but I do try my best to enforce them. o_O

Post a silly gif (pronounced gif, not jif, definitely deadly serious about this one!) and we can all be as we were. :D
 

MattHooper

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LOL, not fooled. Why didn't you take MattHooper on for actually being the one who took it back to all serious again, link?

In that link was replying to the point raised by Robin.

Didn't you notice the emoji in my reply to you? Don't you recognize that indicates my reply was as unserious as yours?
 

Robin L

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Well, I'm going to get semi-serious. "Microdynamics" is a buzzword, insinuating levels of audible information becoming accessible on certain gear with certain recordings. I think "Microdynamics" is really all about SINAD, something measurable---the noise floor essentially. Seeing as the buzzword is applied regularly in situations where it's not really applicable, it has become a joke.

And Metrodynamics is so much more upper West Side sounding, don'tcha think? More "sizzle".
 

rdenney

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In photography, microcontrast is a real thing. It’s where small changes in brightness of adjacent details are made more apparent without losing shadow or highlight detail (which occurs with changes in contrast on a large scale).

It is clearly a departure from linearity, and intentionally so.

Using that as a model, perhaps micro dynamics could be defined as making more apparent small changes in the loudness of adjacent sounds without clipping the loudest parts or dropping the softest parts into the noise floor.

The question before the house would be: is anyone linear system less capable of rendering small changes in volume than any other linear system? It’s linear or it isn’t.

Perhaps signal processing could be used to separate loudness values of adjacent sounds without extending loud bits into clipping or softest bits into the noise floor. But a playback system that did that routinely wouldn’t be something I’d want.

Rick “a system is either linear or it isn’t” Denney
 
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Digby

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Rick “a system is either linear or it isn’t” Denney
Are you sure that isn't an oversimplification? In that, speakers can have different directivity and sensitivity and yet still be linear. A large 15" speaker with a horn (let's presume it is a good one, like the JBL 4367) does not sound the same as a significantly smaller speaker (say Genelec 8050), even if the in-room response is very similar and they are both playing well within their SPL limits. The difference is down to, I assume - directivity, efficiency, size of the speaker (imaging differences) and other things too?

One speaker will sound closer to life, when reproducing the (already rather limited) stereo signal. Invariably, it will not be the smaller speaker.

There is definitely something about a large speaker (and even gradations of larger speaker, say 10" mid-bass compared to 8" or 6") that reproduces something more akin to non-reproduced, 'lifelike' sound. I don't think it is a case of non-linearity, but don't expect me to be able to fully explain it, I cannot. I do suspect that it is likely largely to do with directivity (likely narrower, and well controlled) and efficiency to ever lower frequencies, both of which seem to require large drivers and a large cabinet.

Even comparing 12" mid-woofer and 15" mid-woofer speakers in exactly the same vein, like the JBL 4349 and 4367, people have noticed this difference; a change from 12" to 15" doesn't seem that great, but it does have effects for directivity and sensitivity at the lowest frequencies. Maybe this is where the difference lies?
 

MattHooper

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Good post!

Though I think your suggestion essentially amounts to what I'd argued.

In photography, microcontrast is a real thing.

While it's a nice analogy, we don't even necessarily need the analogy. "Microdynamics" in music and music reproduction is already a real thing too. (And I'd linked to how the terms have been used in those professions, along with the analogies to music notation).

Using that as a model, perhaps micro dynamics could be defined as making more apparent small changes in the loudness of adjacent sounds without clipping the loudest parts or dropping the softest parts into the noise floor.


When you write "making more apparent small changes" it seems to suggest an additive approach, as if microdynamics would be something one manipulates to exaggerate or not? Is that what you mean to suggest, rather than microdynamics being something one can preserve or not in the recording of an instrument?

In any case, one of the devil-in-the-details will be "what counts as small changes in the loudness of adjacent sounds?" There's going to be a certain amount of arbitrariness in what we decide would be the cut off point for "microdynamics" or what goes in to that category, right? A lot of the pushback I got was along the lines of "why distinguish between micro and macro dynamics? Why not just say "dynamics.?" Your approach would have to answer the same questions - what count as as "small changes" and why distinguish that from just 'dynamics?' I don't anticipate it would do much better (?) and any reasonable answer will, it seems to me, recapitulate the justifications I've already given in this thread. But I'd be happy to see you draw out your distinctions. (And note that any existence of "microdynamics" in the recorded signal or playback system necessarily implies the same in real sounds, e.g. the instruments and voices being recorded, and so the same questions apply. Which is why, as I've pointed out, musicians actually do have such language to describe such differences).


The question before the house would be: is anyone linear system less capable of rendering small changes in volume than any other linear system? It’s linear or it isn’t.

Yes that's the equivalent of where my argument led to as well. Is there any reason to think certain systems are less able to render "microdynamics" faithfully or less or more realistically than another?

As a sidebar: For me, my concern about microdynamics mostly arises from what I seem to observe about the differences between live and reproduced sound. Last night I was walking along a busy urban street with tons of bars (I live around the corner). Some bars are blasting recorded music - often jazz or jazzy - some have live performances. Some are live one night, recorded music the next.

I was walking towards a bar, the front portion of which was open on to the street. I could hear a sax playing (and bass and guitar, lightly backing during the solo) and it was just unmistakably a live saxophone. I stopped before I even passed the bar, listening, and just asking myself "what IS it about the characteristics of that sound that tells me it's live, not reproduced?" And it was the usual: The sense of acoustic size and power, the timbral richness, but also definitely a sense of dynamics. It wasn't the sheer loudness - I hadn't even got close enough to the bar for the sound to be loud at all. And yet the sonic character just sounded live. There was a liveliness of dynamics between all the notes that I just don't hear from reproduced sound normally. And of course when I continued and passed the bar, it was a guy playing sax and live backing band. In fact I came home, put on a good sax recording, blasted it to live-like levels and listened from down the hall. Having just heard the real sax really put in relief that, yeah, the sound of the reproduced sax is clear and vivid in my home, and the recorded sax player is playing much like the live one I heard in terms of soft to loud, yet it just sounded clearly compressed, less life-like, in dynamics, compared to the real thing. I continually observe the same about any live instrument, acoustic guitars included.

Ultimately though, subjective impressions and anecdote as they may be,it should be a technically answerable question, whether reproduced sound is in fact reproducing the exact range of dynamics of someone playing a real instrument.





 

krabapple

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I wasn't the one writing all the jokes. Here's what happened:-
  1. @krabapple sincerely asked what are micro dynamics, exactly;
  2. a string of jocular inanities ensued, and nothing else;
  3. you joined in;
  4. in the spirit of it all, I joined in with "so we are all agreed it's a joke, took a while but we got there";
  5. you suddenly turned on me, just me, and insisted you are deadly serious!
Now that's what I call cherry-picking @MattHooper! Why didn't you spot that one, hmm? (BTW I didn't cherry-pick or trawl the thread; I just listed all the answers in a string straight after krabapple's question -- if I left any out it was just more jokes like "mega dynamics must be related to Sony's Walkman feature Megabass".)


For years I had a Panasonic(?) boombox that went further --- it had a *Hyper Bass* switch. I loved that thing.


He could've trawled the bazillion different replies, good, bad or otherwise in the umpteen pages in this thread already. Maybe that is why we tried having a little fun, we've been round the houses fifteen times already. To no avail, as usual, so why not lighten the mood? :p
or you, or someone, could simply tell us what 'micro-dynamics' are, in terms with agreed upon technical meaning. Like maybe:

'Dynamics' are the differences in loudness across time. 'Micro dynamics' are small differences, below X threshold" (You tell us what X is)

FWIW, best data say that human can hear differences as small as ~0.2 dB in the most human-sensitive part of the audible frequency range, using test tones. (this is why level matching for blind tests is typically prescribed to be to within <0.5dB)

Or are microdynamics unmeasurable, or like hardcore pornography as per Justice Potter "I know it when I see it" Stewart?
 

Robin L

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Ultimately though, subjective impressions and anecdote as they may be,it should be a technically answerable question, whether reproduced sound is in fact reproducing the exact range of dynamics of someone playing a real instrument.
My question would be more along the lines of "how brief a moment in time, or small a difference in phase can the human ear detect?" Things having to do with how the brain processes sound, what are the variables that can define limits in hearing acuity---and how much sound needs to be captured in order for an auditor to say "This is real" in a repeatable way for a large group of auditors.

I pretty much assume that the dynamics of sound are reduced in potential magnitude on account of how transducers work. Once the sound turns into electricity, the errors just keep increasing until the snare drum finds its way into an earpod.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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From what I've been led to believe from people using the term 'microdynamics' is the ability to hear small details in the presence of louder sounds. Like the drumstick dragging across the head of a snare before or just after a snare hit, or subtle string noise of fingers on a guitar string or an acoustic string bass. In my experience, horns do this better than regular cone/dome speakers.

By the way, a microdynamic is 1000 times greater than a nanodynamic. :cool:
 

Newman

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or you [Digby], or someone, could simply tell us what 'micro-dynamics' are, in terms with agreed upon technical meaning. Like maybe:

'Dynamics' are the differences in loudness across time. 'Micro dynamics' are small differences, below X threshold" (You tell us what X is)

FWIW, best data say that human can hear differences as small as ~0.2 dB in the most human-sensitive part of the audible frequency range, using test tones. (this is why level matching for blind tests is typically prescribed to be to within <0.5dB)

Or are microdynamics unmeasurable, or like hardcore pornography as per Justice Potter "I know it when I see it" Stewart?
I’m going to have to disappoint your first-sentence request for a simple, agreed-upon technical meaning, because your last-sentence suspicion that it’s a case of “I know it when (I sometimes imagine) I hear it” is right.

Photography’s ‘microcontrast’ is the same: everyone freely and unwarrantedly uses the word, even when 99% of the time it is actually something else (a number of possible things) that is causing the effect they are seeing. It’s actually a case of misattribution of other effects to the word microcontrast. BTW unlike microdynamics, there is an agreed-upon technical meaning for microcontrast that is agreed by the technically literate, but not agreed by the “it’s the magic sauce of Zeiss know-how” (or whatever) crowd, and that is simply resolution in the MTF30 domain (don’t ask), which means the proponents should be saying MTF30 instead of microcontrast, and also means the word has no unique meaning because it is actually something else. When the literate attempt to explain this disappointing meaning to the magic-sauce crowd, they get shouted down and denialism rises. Sounds familiar?

Similarly for microdynamics, it is a case of misattribution and the use of the word seems to have originated in the Golden Ear Subjective Reviewer Flowery Lexicon domain, and associated publications, and significantly and instructively, does not appear in the writings of [edit: authoritative sound reproduction] audio technicians and researchers. Also similarly, the misattribution seems to be connected to a perception of increased detail and resolution, which, unfortunately for the proponents, can be caused by any number of much more mundane and disappointing origins than an innate, distinct quality called microdynamics. Such as rolled off bass response, or rising treble response, or a lifted band in the upper-mids-to-lower-highs. Also get this: imagine a playback system with a ragged frequency response, trying to reproduce an original music or vocal source that has smooth sliding notes of the same loudness. What comes out will have microdynamics because the loudness of that particular instrument or vocal will be going up and down (within the overall music) in a way that the origin didn’t!

Note how, in all the examples I just described, the mundane and disappointing origin of a perception of microdynamics is actually flawed reproduction. You can’t imagine how disappointing and unacceptable this is to the magic-sauce proponents, who have misattributed it to something innate and positive that a genius designer has added to the gear being listened to.

Cheers
 
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MattHooper

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Similarly for microdynamics, it is a case of misattribution and the use of the word seems to have originated in the Golden Ear Subjective Reviewer Flowery Lexicon domain, and associated publications, and significantly and instructively, does not appear in the writings of audio technicians and researchers.

You keep making these types of claims without any actual evidence, while ignoring evidence presented to the contrary.

You are simply wrong that the term "microdynamics" does not appear in the writings of audio technicians and researchers.

I have already provided evidence that the term is used both in music and by recording technicians:




Here is some more use of the term microdynamics by audio researchers:


--------------------------------------------------------

Measures of microdynamics​



Overall loudness variations such as the distance between soft and loud scenes of a movie are known as macrodynamics, and can be quantified with the Loudness Range measure. Microdynamics, in contrast, concern variations on a (much) finer time-scale. In this study, six types of objective measures - some based on loudness level, some based on peak-to-average ratio - were evaluated against perceived microdynamics. A novel measure LDR, based on the maximum difference between a 'fast' and a 'slow' loudness level, had the strongest perceptual correlation. Peak-to-average ratio (or crest factor) type of measures had little or no correlation. The ratings of perceived microdynamics were obtained in a listening experiment, with stimuli consisting of music and speech with different dynamical properties.

-------------------------------------------------------



Hyper-compression, Environmental Noise and Preferences for the Ear Bud Listening Experience

... Hjortkjaer et al. in their study assert that " listeners were not sensitive to differences in dynamic range compression with respect to either the subjective preference or perceived depth " and that their data " suggest that listeners are less sensitive to even high levels of compression than commonly claimed " [15]. They also state to have used stimuli of 15s duration which would suggest that the study concentrated on micro-dynamics, as the " use of short samples shifts the focus to evaluating microdynamics rather than macro-dynamics " [18]. With this in mind, and coupled with the inclusion of a strong masking agent such as environmental noise, it is more than likely that the perception of microdynamics was further hindered making it less likely for subjects to discriminate between non-compressed and hyper-compressed stimuli.

-------------------------------------------------

Development of Semantic Scales for Music Mastering


... Some recent perceptual measures, relevant to music production, have been developed by measuring certain signal features of the music while showing a correlation to a perceptual dimension, such as microdynamics [5] and punch [16]. ...


-----------------------------------------------

From a paper:

ENGINEERING REPORTS
About Dynamic Processing in Mainstream Music


Most notably, it will be shown that whereas
the loudness war may have a strong influence on micro-
dynamics
, it has no influence on macro-dynamics,

....

the crest factor can be a good measure of micro-
dynamics of a signal,
measuring the saliency of the peaks.
But we argue that it is not always the case. For instance,
lets consider the following signal:


n=1
cos (2∗pi ∗n∗F0)(4)
This signal, despite a complete absence of any kind of
amplitude variation, has a crest factor of 15 dB, a value that
should correspond to very high micro-dynamics.


....
Given these considerations, we propose a new measure of micro-dynamics,
directly aimed at measuring the amount of dynamic processing applied


------------------


Perceptual evaluation of music mixing practices​



As listed in Table 1, preference shows a positive lin-
ear correlation with microdynamics measure LDR
[24] (.26, p=.01)
 
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rdenney

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I’m going to have to disappoint your first-sentence request for a simple, agreed-upon technical meaning, because your last-sentence suspicion that it’s a case of “I know it when (I sometimes imagine) I hear it” is right.

Photography’s ‘microcontrast’ is the same: everyone freely and unwarrantedly uses the word, even when 99% of the time it is actually something else (a number of possible things) that is causing the effect they are seeing. It’s actually a case of misattribution of other effects to the word microcontrast. BTW unlike microdynamics, there is an agreed-upon technical meaning for microcontrast that is agreed by the technically literate, but not agreed by the “it’s the magic sauce of Zeiss know-how” (or whatever) crowd, and that is simply resolution in the MTF30 domain (don’t ask), which means the proponents should be saying MTF30 instead of microcontrast, and also means the word has no unique meaning because it is actually something else. When the literate attempt to explain this disappointing meaning to the magic-sauce crowd, they get shouted down and denialism rises. Sounds familiar?

Similarly for microdynamics, it is a case of misattribution and the use of the word seems to have originated in the Golden Ear Subjective Reviewer Flowery Lexicon domain, and associated publications, and significantly and instructively, does not appear in the writings of audio technicians and researchers. Also similarly, the misattribution seems to be connected to a perception of increased detail and resolution, which, unfortunately for the proponents, can be caused by any number of much more mundane and disappointing origins than an innate, distinct quality called microdynamics. Such as rolled off bass response, or rising treble response, or a lifted band in the upper-mids-to-lower-highs. Also get this: imagine a playback system with a ragged frequency response, trying to reproduce an original music or vocal source that has smooth sliding notes of the same loudness. What comes out will have microdynamics because the loudness of that particular instrument or vocal will be going up and down (within the overall music) in a way that the origin didn’t!

Note how, in all the examples I just described, the mundane and disappointing origin of a perception of microdynamics is actually flawed reproduction. You can’t imagine how disappointing and unacceptable this is to the magic-sauce proponents, who have misattributed it to something innate and positive that a genius designer has added to the gear being listened to.

Cheers
MTF30 is about lens contrast versus resolution, not photograph microcontrast.

Photoshop has a slider for it, called Clarity. It’s the process as Sharpness, but at a larger scale than the pixel level where sharpness works. It simply brightens the brighter side of an edge and darkens the darker side.

Low microcontrast:

AFE869A0-599E-4A99-8E18-9237EEC164A7.png

High microcontrast:

B6B0672C-19F3-4DE7-8418-4DB1DBC093FC.png

Rick “the center position of the slider is the most linear” Denney
 
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