Your hearing is not that good… Sorry, it’s just not

[Anton D]

You miss the point from this. Your ears can't detect something then it's irrelevant because it's not audible. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If something sounds good or bad to you that's all that matters as the consumer of the end product. This isn't science the criteria is only consumer satisfaction. Measurements are helpful for reviewers or designers previewing or designing new systems, predicting the sound would be enjoyed by a larger or smaller market share.

There is a certain cult-like thing that happens when you mention listening.

It's what should come after measuring, but people seem to stop one step too soon.

 

[Andysu]

When it comes down to listening to music, many people like to think that there is something magical and special about their ability to hear.

Let me clue you into something: there is nothing special about your hearing. In fact, compared to many mammals, humans have rather poor hearing.

At best, the dynamic range where humans can actually discern the quality of the music or audio they are experiencing is about 100 dB. That’s it.


jeff henning

taylor , planet of the apes , clues you in

i'm an audio seeker to , but my audio dreams ain't like yours , i can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than ASR golden ear member , has to be

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Did your cats come in from the kitchen to tell you how much they liked your new tweeters?

No, but their heads went up and ears went active, and they stared at the front of the room.

Then they went back to ignoring music. Which they always do, unless I am playing something odd with bird sounds in it or something like that. Rainforest sounds, that will bring them to check out the room for a bit. They leave disappointed though.

 

[Mart68]

No, but their heads went up and ears went active, and they stared at the front of the room.

Then they went back to ignoring music. Which they always do, unless I am playing something odd with bird sounds in it or something like that. Rainforest sounds, that will bring them to check out the room for a bit. They leave disappointed though.

my cat knew that the sound of the run-out groove meant I was about to get up so he would jump off my lap onto the coffee table and wait while I turned the record over. When I sat back down he would jump back aboard.

Not saying he was listening to music like we do but he was certainly paying attention to the sound and had connected the run-out sound to my getting up.

He would also judder a little if the amplifier clipped on a peak.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

my cat knew that the sound of the run-out groove meant I was about to get up so he would jump off my lap onto the coffee table and wait while I turned the record over. When I sat back down he would jump back aboard.

For me, it is "ok". If I say that, they move and wait for me to come back. If I don't, I can shift around a bit and they just stay as is. Cats will cooperate with people they like, amazingly well.

As for what they hear, I am pretty sure they hear sounds that come out of each driver very distinctly. Ears you can aim will do that for you.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

There is a certain cult-like thing that happens when you mention listening.

It's what should come after measuring, but people seem to stop one step too soon.

There's even been people mentioning selling speakers they were happy about because instruments didn't show they were flat. The purpose of the measurements is to predict if customers might enjoy the product. The end goal is customer satisfaction. The measurements are validated by the research showing flat speakers are rated highly by an overall majority of participants. When a customer enjoys the speaker with boosted treble it's not less successful on the same basis for that customer than one which gets to the same end goal of enjoyment for another customer with a flat treble.

 

[Anton D]

There's even been people mentioning selling speakers they were happy about because instruments didn't show they were flat. The purpose of the measurements is to predict if customers might enjoy the product. The end goal is customer satisfaction. The measurements are validated by the research showing a flat speakers are rated highly by an overall majority of participants. When a customer enjoys the speaker with boosted treble it's not less successful on the same basis for that customer than one which gets to the same end goal of enjoyment for another customer with flat speakers.

It seems there is also some "measurement FOMO!"

Thanks for that link.

 

[Vacceo]

It seems there is also some "measurement FOMO!"

Thanks for that link.

There is only one FOMO! And he happens to be a fellow forum member.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

No one can tell me what I can hear!!! I can hear a change in the palpability of the gestalt of the micro air around the instruments when my $50K Shinyata quantum power cords are not on their Synergistic Purple cable lifters from around the block.

And digital? Digital! I can hear the texture of the black lines that represent the steps in any high res digital while being waterboarded in the next state.

And don’t ask me about DBTs every audiophile whose system is resolving enough knows that DBTs don’t work because it destroys the 583 hour burn in the quantum super conductor $30K high end fuses need to properly burn in.

Y’all are just jealous because you can’t afford real high end gear and have never heard a system with enough resolution and PRaT. And y’all only care about measurements anyway. I don’t listen to measurements or test signals. I listen to music! And y’all can’t measure music.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'm sure we can find something that makes every every single human on earth seem like an asshole. You can find something I've written or I can recall something I've said and done.
This is the difference: Some people stick up their head much more than average. Everything online is archived forever.

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."
- Cardinal Richelieu.

As true then as it is today. However, some people can be found guilty as assholes by the preponderance of evidence in a fair proceeding, with due process, too. Fremer might have something to worry about if hanging was still the punishment for that.

As for whether audiophiles can hear the things they claim to hear... well, how many of these super-ears called out MoFi for the DSD step in their analog releases? It should have been obvious to... I dunno, that one guy who claims to hear jitter at -300dB?

 

[Emlin]

No one can tell me what I can hear!!! I can hear a change in the palpability of the gestalt of the micro air around the instruments when my $50K Shinyata quantum power cords are not on their Synergistic Purple cable lifters from around the block.

And digital? Digital! I can hear the texture of the black lines that represent the steps in any high res digital while being waterboarded in the next state.

And don’t ask me about DBTs every audiophile whose system is resolving enough knows that DBTs don’t work because it destroys the 583 hour burn in the quantum super conductor $30K high end fuses need to properly burn in.

Y’all are just jealous because you can’t afford real high end gear and have never heard a system with enough resolution and PRaT. And y’all only care about measurements anyway. I don’t listen to measurements or test signals. I listen to music! And y’all can’t measure music.

I hear ya, but toe taps is how you measures it. No toe taps, no music, indeed yes.

 

[JSmith]

PRaT.

I know a few prats... they don't even like music, go figure.


JSmith

 

[rwortman]

Been thinking about the whole subjectivist/objectivist debate. Since subjective listening is the what I do with my system, subjective reviews are worth reading. Of course, I pass them through my own belief filters. I pretty much ignore comments regarding magic cables. Anyone who has been around audio for a while has observed, other than frequency response, there is little to no correlation between measurements and listening impressions. Stereophile is careful not to show a reviewer the measurements until the review is done, lest that knowledge bias the reviewer. Here, not so much. I read a review here of a tube amp followed by a listening session wherein our tester heard exactly what the measurements suggested. Trained hearing acuity or bias? Rabid objectivists are nearly as close minded as their tweako counterparts.

 

[Anton D]

We need to keep up.

We have advanced beyond PRaT to GTL: "Goosebumps, tears, and laughter."

GTL exists within cables.

Inarguable.

 

[Henry53]

I agree that measurements can be better than human hearing. My standard example is the oscilloscope on my bench at work that goes to 100MHz. But I don't work in audio so I don't have anything to measure distortion.

I never thought I had exceptional hearing but I've always been pickier than the average listener. And now that I'm older I've lost some high-end. I'm sort of "in tune" to what I'm listening to, and I listen to reverb and other sound characteristics at live events... just because I'm interested in sound and audio..

I used think there were "golden eared audiophiles" (and I do trust Amir as a trained listener) but since I've learned that most "audiophiles" don't believe in blind listening tests, I no longer trust most of what I read.

Some people obviously do have better training and/or better hearing than others.

I've intentionally avoided trying to train myself to hear compression artifacts, or anything like that. I'm not really trying to hear defects. I want to enjoy the sound/music. Of course, I've heard some low-quality MP3s but I wouldn't want to become more picky and maybe lose some listening enjoyment.

As far as dynamic range, somewhere around 100dB seems right, but we can have short-duration peaks above 100dB SPL and there is an acoustic noise floor so we can't hear sounds down to 0dB under any normal listening conditions. And the equipment may need a wider dynamic range if we want/need headroom.

What level of 'distortion' can a human hear. We get test results showing one product has less distortion than another and reach a conclusion the lower figure is better. Why does in matter when we cannot hear either?

 

[Henry53]

I agree with your little rant at that post. ASR tends to promote a certain objectivist audiophoolery, whereby achieving >100dB SINAD is a standard of minimal acceptability, rather than the measure of overkill that it really is.

As no one can hear at the level these measurements are what is the purpose?

 

[Henry53]

Sorry, what did you say?
sounded like mumbling . . .

So what are we testing, actual sound we can hear or a signal we cannot?

 

[JSmith]

What level of 'distortion' can a human hear.

There are different aspects to distortion/non-linearity though, harmonic, intermodulation, transient intermodulation. IMD when high enough is audible and quite objectionable, as is noise. The goal is to reduce all forms of distortion and noise, whilst maintaining a flat frequency response in the audible range.


JSmith

 

[Henry53]

There are different aspects to distortion/non-linearity though, harmonic, intermodulation, transient intermodulation. IMD when high enough is audible and quite objectionable, as is noise. The goal is to reduce all forms of distortion and noise, whilst maintaining a flat frequency response in the audible range.


JSmith

But can we actually hear what is being measured, when all modern equipment is so well designed and built?

 

[GoFaster]

But can we actually hear what is being measured, when all modern equipment is so well designed and built?

No. I doubt anyone can hear the limits of well designed gear anymore than they can see ultraviolet light easily recorded by a spectrometer. Our senses are too limited.

On the flip side, sometimes we can't measure what is easily perceived by the ear. For example, if I toe my speakers in or out by 5 degrees, my ears easily tell the difference. I will bet any amount of money I can detect the change blindfolded. But REW can't. REW may measure a tiny, almost imperceptible, change in dB at higher frequencies, all the while my ears are screaming "are these even the same speakers?"