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Yamaha loudness vs. bass/treble

mr.k

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I understand what the loudness button does - Fletcher/Munson, raising/lowering bass and treble, etc. So, you decide the maximum volume at which you'd like to listen, and then use the loudness knob to control the amounts of bass and treble for low-volume listening.

What I don't understand is, for Yamaha amplifiers without loudness control (AS1200, AS2200), how can I achieve a similar effect using the bass and treble buttons for certain volume levels?

There are tone control characteristic curves in the documentation, but there is nothing regarding loudness.

Does loudness use the same curves, but simultaneously for both bass and treble for specific volume levels?
 

DVDdoug

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Loudness compensation has gone out of fashion for some reason. Probably because it was tied to the volume control knob setting and not the actual "loudness".

I think it's coming back in Dirac (or some other room correction). Since Dirac measures the sound in the room it can be better calibrated to the actual loudness.

Does loudness use the same curves, but simultaneously for both bass and treble for specific volume levels?
I think most of them just boosted bass and there's no real standard.
 

popej

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I don't think Dirac offers loudness.
Loudness is a feature of Audyssey, it is called Dynamic EQ, and of Yamaha YPAO, where it is called YPAO volume.
As opposed to analog implementation, digital loudness based on acoustic measurements of a system works quite well.
 
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mr.k

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I'm interested in whether it's possible to achieve an experience similar to using a loudness curve without introducing additional digital components into the system.
This is for simplicity and due to space constraints.
 

bodhi

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I'm interested in whether it's possible to achieve an experience similar to using a loudness curve without introducing additional digital components into the system.
This is for simplicity and due to space constraints.
What is more simple than just using automatic loudness compensation? There are decent AVR capable of that available that cost same or less than those Yamahas and are not any bigger. They sound just the same.
 

ZolaIII

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There are software solutions tied to ISO 226 2003 implementation where you do calibration to white noise level like EQ-APO or JRiver. There are and some DAC's and interfaces with loudness option like part of the RME ADI line (ADI-2 for example).
 

popej

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I'm interested in whether it's possible to achieve an experience similar to using a loudness curve without introducing additional digital components into the system.
To get a proper loudness, one has to solve 3 problems:
1. Apply a set of frequency characteristics dependent on volume settings.
2. Tune amplifier to speaker efficiency and frequency characteristic in a room.
3. Equalize input signal levels for all inputs.

I think 1. could be solved with usable approximation.
2. means acoustical measurements and at least a basic form of room EQ.
3. is easy but rarely used in stereo amplifiers.

Usually you get analog loudness without solutions for 2. and 3. Which basically means, that you get a random boost for bass/treble, which can work for you or not.

One note: half a century ago loudness switch was quite popular in amplifiers. It was based on volume pot with a tap and some RC circuit on it. IMO it was wrong design, which was the reason for a bad opinion about loudness feature.
 
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Dirac doesn't have a loudness function. That's out of the way then.

If you want to achieve similar functionality with the treble/bass control as the loudness you'd want to dial those up at low volume (smiley curve) and down at higher volume.
 

ZolaIII

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To get a proper loudness, one has to solve 3 problems:
1. Apply a set of frequency characteristics dependent on volume settings.
2. Tune amplifier to speaker efficiency and frequency characteristic in a room.
3. Equalize input signal levels for all inputs.

I think 1. could be solved with usable approximation.
2. means acoustical measurements and at least a basic form of room EQ.
3. is easy but rarely used in stereo amplifiers.

Usually you get analog loudness without solutions for 2. and 3. Which basically means, that you get a random boost for bass/treble, which can work for you or not.

One note: half a century ago loudness switch was quite popular in amplifiers. It was based on volume pot with a tap and some RC circuit on it. IMO it was wrong design, which was the reason for a bad opinion about loudness feature.
That's nonsense! You do EQ-ing, then you do calibration (to white noise - 20 dB siglal at 83 - 86~87 dB mono/stereo) and enable loudness control's. That's about it. In case of analog fixed point EQ or PEQ you won't be able to do EQ-ing not even close to digital PEQ, FIR, RIF but loudness you do to calibration with deacent SPL meter and use the same meter to adjust knob in case of analog implementation. Of course it's important to remind you how loudness normalisation curves are relative. You usually can not do it with bass/treble controls as they have different entry/max point to loudness curve. It's possible to compensate to a certain degree (busting the bass) which is better than nothing I suppose. Trable gets boost only on rather low SPL anyway.
Some of mentioned interfaces/DAC's also have possibility to control at what SPL it gets active and even to reverse it (lower bass boost) on very high average SPL (over 90 dB).
I do have a table to do it manually for ISO 226 2003 somewhere and if I menage to dig it out I will post it again.
 

ZolaIII

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Sorry for my poor English, but I can't get, where we differ :)
You do calibration with white noise to 83-86~87 dB mono/stereo with SPL meter. That's equal loudness normalisation without any correction. Then you dial volume down, measure SPL and dial down to the - dB value you measureed the loudness knob on amplifier.
 

popej

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You do calibration with white noise to 83-86~87 dB mono/stereo with SPL meter. That's equal loudness normalisation without any correction. Then you dial volume down, measure SPL and dial down to the - dB value you measureed the loudness knob on amplifier.
Ok, I see. You simply don't care about other potential problems, that can reduce loudness usability.
 

ZolaIII

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Ok, I see. You simply don't care about other potential problems, that can reduce loudness usability.
I do but they aren't a part of loudness.
I use JRiver white ISO 226 2003 to all outputs and intermediate WDM driver so that it's applied to all internal digital sources. Of course I do rigorous PEQ correction and white noise calibration. I don't care about over 87~88 dB average (107~108 peak) level as I don't listen at that levels. I also do EBU R128 (up to - 23 LUFS) normalisation on all. It's potent enough system with two sub's that can translate good and keeps DR with such. You won't get that out of amplifier only running main speakers even in case of bigger flour standers and I am not sure there is even AVR which will apply it correctly and to the subwoofer's (which do most of work regarding loudness).
 
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mhardy6647

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I understand what the loudness button does - Fletcher/Munson, raising/lowering bass and treble, etc. So, you decide the maximum volume at which you'd like to listen, and then use the loudness knob to control the amounts of bass and treble for low-volume listening.

What I don't understand is, for Yamaha amplifiers without loudness control (AS1200, AS2200), how can I achieve a similar effect using the bass and treble buttons for certain volume levels?

There are tone control characteristic curves in the documentation, but there is nothing regarding loudness.

Does loudness use the same curves, but simultaneously for both bass and treble for specific volume levels?
At least classically, Yamaha's variable loudness was an attempt to re-create something akin to the Fletcher-Munson curves.
Here, e.g., is the behavior of the variable loudness on the redoubtable late 1970s CR-2020 receiver.



And a closeup of "that part" of a CR-2020 front panel.


EDIT: oops, the "Loudness" pot isn't visible in that photo ;) Sorry!
Here's part of an R-1000 front panel showing the volume ("level") and loudness controls.



Variable loudness was actually quite common on integrated amplifiers and preamps (mono and stereo) in the 1950s and 1960s. They all worked pretty much the same way. The variable loudness should be set "flat", and the volume level adjusted to the loudest listening level that the user ever wished to employ. Thereafter, sound levels were to be controlled by turning "down" the loudness control.
 

NiagaraPete

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I understand what the loudness button does - Fletcher/Munson, raising/lowering bass and treble, etc. So, you decide the maximum volume at which you'd like to listen, and then use the loudness knob to control the amounts of bass and treble for low-volume listening.

What I don't understand is, for Yamaha amplifiers without loudness control (AS1200, AS2200), how can I achieve a similar effect using the bass and treble buttons for certain volume levels?

There are tone control characteristic curves in the documentation, but there is nothing regarding loudness.

Does loudness use the same curves, but simultaneously for both bass and treble for specific volume levels?
I bought RME DAC primarily because of the programable loudness features. It allows you to set your levels for which it’s active and how much bass and treble gets boosted. I’ve not had enough time to really work it all out but it seems interesting.

My buddy owns avas2200. It it a very nice product but like you said no loudness.

From the RME docs.
Another legacy of HiFi amplifiers: there has not been a single one missing a feature called Loudness. It tries to address the changes in frequency-dependent hearing sensitivity over differ- ent volume levels. If one listens to music loud, then drops the level by at least 20 dB, sound los- es punch and glitter. HiFi amps tried to fight this effect by adding more bass and treble the lower the volume was set. Unfortunately that never worked as intended, and just became an additional bass/treble booster. Reason: the manufacturer of the HiFi amp could not know what volume any position of the volume knob equals at the customer’s home. Room size, room dampening and efficiency of the used speakers are all unknown.
But the effect of loss in perceived sound exists (read about the Fletcher-Munson curves), and can be easily reproduced with any serious gear by comparing normal volume and DIM state (usually -20 dB). The ADI-2 DAC offers Loudness for the analog stereo outputs, and probably is the first time that Loudness works as intended. The user can decide how much maximum gain in Bass and Treble should occur at lower volume settings. The user also sets the Low Vol Ref- erence, where maximum gain is achieved. After extensive tests a 20 dB range has been defined as range for maximum gain to no gain while increasing volume. That seemed to be the perfect definition of the range that needs to be addressed by Loudness.
Here is an example on how it works: the user’s typical lowest level listening volume is at -35 dB at the unit. This value is now set by the user as Low Vol Ref in the Loudness menu. Then Bass and Treble Gain can be set between 0 and +10 dB. Default is +7 dB for both. Increasing the volume by turning the Volume knob causes the gain in Bass and Treble to be lowered smoothly over a range of 20 dB. So when Volume is set to -15 dB, the music is not only quite loud, but Loudness’ Bass and Treble are then at 0 dB gain. See chapter 31.8 for graphs.
No matter how sensitive the connected phones or speakers are, no matter how much increase in Bass and Treble are desired – with the ADI-2 DAC one can finally adjust it to meet the per- sonal hearing and taste. Loudness finally works as it should have worked from the start - anoth- er unique feature in the ADI-2 DAC.
Note: Loudness works best in Auto Ref Level mode due to the seamless dBr scale of the vol- ume control. Without Auto Ref Level active, manually changing the Ref Level will change the volume without changing the VOLume value (dB). As Loudness is referenced to a 'Low Vol Ref' setting it then might no longer work as intended, and needs the Low Vol Ref value to be adjust-
 
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The tone controls characteristics of my A-S1000 resembles the curves from the loudness contour. Using those would be much like the loudness function but of course at a fixed point of volume.

1692677094068.png
 

anioq

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Yeah but +10db is not enough. You need like 30+ db boost at normal listening volumes. I really wish Dirac would add loudness curve like Audyssey's Dynamic EQ.
 

popej

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Yeah but +10db is not enough.
Should be enough if you listen about 20dB below reference level. I have calculated once required correction for reference level 80dB, see attached picture.
 

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